Listen to the doc. Hope you get well soon! Awaiting your next strategy topic, always gets a discussion started.
GW36 Japanese Strategy, Refusing the Dragon.
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Great point on China being at war in 39. I didnt think about that. That said, I think it could still work. If Japan punches through and gobbles up the south eastern pointed areas of Russia, it could greatly add income. Just guessing at this point. My oldest son and I are going to try this Friday from an Axis perspective while a few other sons try their hands at stopping us. Fun!
Thx
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Great point on China being at war in 39. I didnt think about that. That said, I think it could still work. If Japan punches through and gobbles up the south eastern pointed areas of Russia, it could greatly add income. Just guessing at this point. My oldest son and I are going to try this Friday from an Axis perspective while a few other sons try their hands at stopping us. Fun!
Thx
Hehe! A fantastic reason to have many sons! :-D
Worth a shot! It would put a lot of pressure on the Soviets, but its hard going in the mountains of the Soviet Far East. Also there are not many Wartime Bonuses for Japan up north. :-P -
Game two is over - Axis won with myself with Japan and Italy and my oldest Germany. Three of my other boys and my oldest best friend made up the allies. (We had the experience advantage which was big I have to admit though).
1. Germany hit Russia early but was pretty thin because of it.
2. Saving grace was Brits taking the med fleet out of the med and bringing it up the the english channel. I (Italy) dominated the med, took Yugo, eventually took all of Aftrica and pressed into the middle east, finally taking Transcaucasia, etc. Big mistake by the Brits.
3. With my suprise attack bonus combat move coupled with most ships moving 4 from a naval base I actually pulled off a San Fran grab with the Japanese. Again, inexperiene by the USA player and not seeing this bonus of, what would be 5 spaces in some cases, made this possible. The USA split their fleet so not too many ships would be hurt with the suprise attack but left only four ships in front of San Fran - it was beautiful but a bit like a heavy weight pounding on a light weight, lol.
4. With this, too much was lost and they aggreed the game was lost by the end of 42.It was a learning experience for all of us in trying to learn the new system (which is amazing) but more of a learning curve for the young lads.
Bill
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I think you misunderstand the concept of this strategy. The basic concept is that Japan is not obligated to attack China immediately, and since China remains neutral until Japan chooses or until China effectively eats itself by attacking the warlords; means that Japan can choose when and who and where to attack first without an ongoing war leaves many options available.
In the long run, Japan should eventually attack China, to gain victory points as well wartime bonuses. But it is also is a viable strategy to keep peace on that front while focusing on others.
As an example: I just finished another game as Axis, where Japan again ignored China, and instead sent its strength into the Soviet Far East. That became combined with a 1-2 punch against the Soviets, when the Germans blitzed into Russia instead of France in its Lightning War and took out Moscow before they could even spend their IPC from first turn in Wartime Income, giving a massive boost to German funds, then the Japanese managed to take Novosibirsk and then Soviets where Finished and Done. It could not have been possible if Japan had been fighting a two front war with China and the Soviets.
Refusing the Dragon is not a strategy to win the game, but it is a Strategic Option.
This strategy can, of course, be expected and defended against, but because I did it in Game #1 and took Calcutta, the Allies expected it in Game #2 and poured resources in protecting it, and instead; Japan took out the Soviet Far East.
That is what I like about Global War, there is no one strategic play or military buildup plan, there are many many options and each can be expected and countered, but doing so detracts from resources elsewhere.
For my personal enjoyment, either if it is good or if it is bad, I chose to name this Strategic Play, Refusing the Dragon, a strategic reference to Refusing the Flank, and the Chinese Dragon, I found it fitting. Employed it twice successfully and I like it. :-P
Cheers!I understand the concept and support it. My response regarding the lost VP is based on the strengthen position of China and a late stage (US active) invasion. Against strong opponents this type of invasion would be difficult, especially since regardless of direction (Soviet or Dutch) you will be in an inferior IPP position. (The +1IPP per coastal zone in china is hard to make up.) Further a move against the soviets elevates them to 48 IPP which is certain defeat if Germany is not ready to invade Russia in tandem with Japan. Since Germany can not effectively invade Russia until after Paris falls this would leave Japan sitting on its hands for the first 4 or 5 turns. In that time Japan could secure the coastal regions and move against Russia with a 33 IPP economy instead of a 19.
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Warwick,
I suppose time will tell, and the you regard this as the intellectual and civil theorizing I believe it to be, without rancor or arrogance.Personally, the fact that China is effectively neutralized until it “eats” itself or Japan declares war is of significance to me.
The IPP Japan could gain by sinking resources into that backwater doesn’t justify prioritizing it over the DEI, India or Australia. Against a skilled Chinese opponent and generous Allies, China becomes a festering wound in which the Japanese must devote proportionally greater resources, chase the enemy into the hills, and extend its borders in a long flank.I’m of a mind that those Wartime Bonuses in China can be plucked whenever Japan desires to, China will not grow any stronger, while the FEC, ANZAC, and the Soviet, will.
I think it is feasible in the early to mid game to safely ignore China, because:-
A. Initially Japan needs a turn or two to prepare to attack China.
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B. The initial butchers bill does not equate to IPP from territorial gains.
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C. The initial territorial gains are negated anyway due to the loss of the Peacetime Bonus with USA.
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D. The Chinese will be rendered safe (by its not attacking warlords) or stagnant (by its attacking the warlords, killing units that would be theirs, and losing Units in the process.
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E. The Chinese can be dealt with at leisure. Japan can declare war on its terms, at any moment of its choosing.
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F. By ignoring China, Japan becomes a greater threat in the pacific, putting more enemy resources in the pacific and away from more lucrative territory in Europe.
If players put the war ahead of their specific national gains…this in my mind is what separates the mediocre players from the excellent. -
G. If China is neutral, Japan can range and strike in force anywhere it wishes. Pearl Harbor, Calcutta, Sydney, Vladivostok. While still threatening to strike China at any point. Every enemy unit gaurding a coastline, is one troop less firing its weapons, at Japanese or at fellow Chinese.
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H. Japan, through all this, can still make sizable income from the DEI as well as the income from wherever it chose to send its strike force.
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I. With a sufficient strike force (built from the money you havn’t poured into china), Japan has a chance at capturing either Sydney or Calcutta, which means a stolen IPP and a dead Power. That alone makes up for missed income from China.
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J. Lastly, It’s fun being off the history books!
These are my opinions of course, and my games also have modified rules which may effect vanilla strategy. Chiefly tweaked air combat, and sea movement limitations.
In regards to what you said Warwick, about Germany not ready to invade Soviet’s in tandem with Japan…what’s the point in that case? It would be stupid for Japan to go to war if not in lockstep with Germany. Historically that is what allowed Soviet’s to rush troops over to the West
Germany cannot invade Russia until after Paris falls? Im not sure why you think that! Germany can invade anytime it likes.
In fact, I’d be willing to say it’s easier to go into Russia before setting foot in France!
France and Germany share a single border with a strong French Fortification. Even if Germany goes through the Lowlands, France can mobilize a sufficient force to halt a Germany that splits its force between Poland and France. With only two territories to be concerned with, France is ready.But, with Germany’s Lightning War, it can Blitz through Poland and into Soviet lands across a wide front, and stab deep into Russia. Germany can even reach Moscow. Soviets cannot bring a significant force to bear for at least one more German turn. At which point it is limited by factory production.
If you have a map handy take a glance: If Germany can Blitz twice in Lightning War, that means any tanks and Mechs in East Prussia can be in Moscow on the turn Germany is at war. Combine that with a $14 purchase by the Soviet, the Soviet’s border clashes with Japan, perhaps the Soviet’s out of position, the Soviets surprised -1 defense, and an additional German round before the Soviet’s can spend their now less then $46.
The Soviet’s are on the ropes.Germany has probably gained more then the IPP value of France.
Meanwhile the French have only one border with Germany, and the British are probably concerned about Italians. The USA is too far away. Combine this with a good few border clashes by the Japanese, and perhaps an outright war when Germany declares war, and I think France fades a little in importance.
But this is just my experience and thoughts. Everyone has different experiences and strategies, and apparently there is more then one way to skin a cat.
Engage people with what they expect; it is what they are able to discern and confirms their projections. It settles them into predictable patterns of response, occupying their minds while you wait for the extraordinary moment — that which they cannot anticipate.
Sun Tzu, The Art of WarCheers!
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Damn, I write a lot…my work has a lot of waiting around for stuff to happen. I get carried away. My apologies.
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I like this. My son is going to try this with a 39 startup. I think they stand a chance of taking Calcutta and Sidney with a run through the Dutch colonies on the way back. Thats a huge IPP pick up.
What do you think?
Bill
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Bill,
Note in the '39 setup, Japan is already at war with both KMT and CCP. It would be interesting to hear if people have tried this in that scenario though.
In our last '39 game, Japan took over all of China, but had limited ground forces afterwards. Then came in FEC and the Russians…
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Munck,
We’re gonna go for it. I know they are at war but who says we can’t be bold and focus on the brits and Anzac. I too am wondering what this will mean in the end, but that’s what makes this version of the game so much fun - there’s so many ways you can tweak your strategy. Fun, fun, fun!
I’ll let you know if we get our butts bitten with this, lol.
Bill
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Do any of you by chance play with the Manchuko expansion? and what time frame are you looking to start war? also do your groups play with the optional terrain rules? I also tend to use tech for Japan but I don’t invest more then 4 ipp perturn. While ignoring China do you still go with infantry build? or do you invest in more ships? or planes?
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Do any of you by chance play with the Manchuko expansion? and what time frame are you looking to start war? also do your groups play with the optional terrain rules? I also tend to use tech for Japan but I don’t invest more then 4 ipp perturn. While ignoring China do you still go with infantry build? or do you invest in more ships? or planes?
I play with it (Manchuko Expansion), I like it. It’s very advantageous to Japan, but less so for the Soviet because often players forget the partisan side of things. All in all it’s a flavor adding expansion that puts Japanese factories on the mainland and enables Partisan uprisings.
In regards to starting war; every game isn’t different, and it really depends on a lot of factors.
If Japan attacks China, that war usually starts on the second or third turn. Everything else is too vague to say.Optional Terrain rules? Like mountains, rivers, and cities? Yep! Wouldn’t be same without it! It’s part of what makes it hard to attack China or Soviet as Japan.
What do you usually do for Tech? 4IPP is roughly what I do too.
Yeah, again, every game is different and it seems to hinge with what the USA does. The last game I played as Japan. Because Germany did not even attack France and rapidly began crushing Soviet Russia, there was a greater USA buildup in Atlantic theater trying to pull German pressure from Russia. About 60-70% USA built in Atlantic.
So Japan had a little wiggle room to build. -
They need to put out a China expansion also. I know they are working on one but I’m curious to know how it will effect this strategy.
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Seems US being able to do tech out of the gate is broken. Them starting the war with whatever they want is a little nuts.
What do you guys think?
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No one can roll for tech until July of 39.
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Sorry, I wasnt clear - we start at the 39 start date.
My point is that a US player can tech like crazy at 39, and have a few turns to burn which was not really very historic. Wondering if anyone delayed US tech rolling for a couple of turns as a house rule.
For example, in our recent game the US is entering the war with Jets, Heavy bombers and Heavy tanks.
What are your thoughts?
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Honestly its not If America wants to Spend a lot of IPP early-on, on technology knowing it is still only a chance that you will roll the number of times needed is still not high. That is IPP that could be used any where else including Lend Lease or building up Ships, Planes etc. its just a trade off depending on your strategies. Not only that if you delay the United States from rolling on Tech then it makes it that much harder for the allies to win with VC, And if you want to play Historically then you already know who wins the war before you start =p
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They need to put out a China expansion also. I know they are working on one but I’m curious to know how it will effect this strategy.
I agree! Flesh it out a bit. 😊
Personally, I patriotically want a Canada expansion!
I can’t see why not, even from a manufacturing perspective, HBG’s second or third biggest clientele is probably in Canada. -
Anyone have a valid conclusion as to how Japan can declare war on another Nation before they reach 22 IPP with out Attacking China?
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Looking at the GW36 reference sheet for Japan it list the countries Japan can declare war upon.
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So I am assuming war-time income is not a prerequisite for them?
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