Awesome wrap up, Janus.

JustJeff, you have passion about what you believe in and that is a wonderful thing. You might try debating more on a rational side and less on an emotional one. And no matter what you take from Board Game Forums you should definatley read some philosophy. Expanding your mind is never a bad thing. That being said, allow me to respond.

I think you missed the point completely. No one is saying you are a bad person for defining the world the way you see it. Quite the opposite, it is what you do, what you must do as you. Your genetics, your surroundings, the programs running in your brain all make you who you are, and if that is a human being with a Christian view than that is wonderful.

Isn’t it interesting though that you automatically assigned the construct of “wrong” or “bad” to how we view your views even though it was not stated. At least not yet. We’ll get there though, I’m just easing in.

Perhaps you have your own issues with yourself on how you view Gay Marriages . . .

Just Jeff :“That’s why I am still decent to people I know to be gay”

How very big of you. This is not meant as an attack, only as an observation. Take a look at your semantics and you might want to ask why you word things the way you do. Do you harbor hatred towards Homosexuals? Seems that way to me. You certainly don’t want them to have the same rights as you. You might want to ask yourself why.

JustJeff: “Defining a group by what they say people shouldn’t do is patently unfair”

Unfair? You mean like what you are doing to gay people by not giving them equal rights? Defining them by what they say and do. You should apply the “holier than though” ethics to yourself. Oh no, he brought out the “Holier than though” card.

And hey, life’s unfair. People do unfair things all the time. That’s why we have laws to protect people from people like you and me. That’s why we have constitutions and civil rights. Remember slavery? White, Christian, heterosexual men like you and me sat around and debated the same thing about African Americans and guess what, someone said they didn’t deserve the same rights and probably topped it off with something like “That’s why I am still decent to people I know to be black”

Compare your views on homosexuality to slavery? Yep. I just went there. Before you close your mind off, you might want to think about it too. You seem like a smart person. There are a lot of similarities AND differences but the point you seemed to have missed is still the same. ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE EQUAL.

I think at some point in your arguement you went into something about China not having the same rights as we do in the USA and that was supposed to support your statement that there is no such thing as Universal rights. . . . . . . . . . Um, what. Are we to judge human standards by China now? You might want to try a different angle there because you sound stupid and make me loose respect for any intelligence I’m assuming you have. Now that was an attack because, come on. Think about what you write before you write it. For Example:

JustJeff: “There is no ‘right’ to marry; it is a construct of the government with certain advantages and disadvantages . .”

Um, a construct of the government is technically considered a “right” of the people being governed. The “right” of Free Speech is also a construct of the government with certain advantages and disadvantages. Oooh, which is a good lead in to my favorite part:

JustJeff: “For example, a man and woman who are not both of legal age cannot legally wed . . .”

Pay attention, this is crucial . . . . . ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE EQUAL in that they cannot legally wed until they are of legal age (That goes for Jews, Whites, Homosexuals, African Americans)

You use an example of limitations and restrictions of Free Speech to support your logic of no universal rights. You see, everyone has the freedom of speech but there are restrictions on that right, for example yelling “fire” in a crowded theatre is not allowed under law. Uh oh, here it comes again. . . . . .ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE EQUAL in that they have restrictions on their freedom of speech. Jews, Whites, African Americans, men, women, homosexuals all have the same limitations. And why is that? What could possibly be the reason? All are equal under the law.

One more and I swear I’ll stop. But this one is funny so I have to:

JustJeff: “We supposedly have freedom of press, but if you print naughty stories or pictures of naked women, they can only be sold in certain places…”

Bet you can guess it . . . .ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE EQUAL in that they cannot print “naughty stories”.

Alright, alright, I’ve been mean enough. You probably won’t believe me but I am really glad to hear you expressing your views. And what’s worse, is that I would be fighting just as hard for you if someone was trying to put limitations on your rights. I respect that you have your view and I hope you continue to speak it. It is always good to test your views however, and even better to change them in the face of better logic.

In my opinion, Truth is not a constant. It is an ever-changing way of understanding the world around you. Truth is a Maturing of the mind in a way, a Journey.

DAMN am I preachy. Shut up already! I’m going to go look at some “naughty” pictures now . . . . .

In my opinion, opinions are irrelevant. . . .I heard a chuckle. Someone gets the irony. Wow, tough crowd.

Person A says Gay Marriage is wrong.

Person B says Gay Marriage is right.

It is certainly our right to form an opinion and certainly our freedom to express it on a Board Game Forum.

But arguing right and wrong is missing the target. The issue is : Are all human beings equal? Do all human beings have the same rights?

Well that gets complicated. Certainly no one here would argue that homosexuals do not deserve the same rights as heterosexuals. Or if they do then debate any further is pointless atleast as far as I’m concerned.

The issue is then divided into marriage as it pertains to government and law and marriage as it pertains to religion and church.

If we need to debate homosexual marriage under the law then we are even further behind than I thought. But I think we can all agree that as far as the government is concerned all human beings have the same rights. Unconditionally. Equal. Unequivocally. Period.

Therefore “Marriages” or “Civil Unions” or whatever term makes you sleep better at night is 100% “right” as far as civil law is concerned and as long as homosexual marriages enjoy the EXACT SAME rights and privileges as heterosexuals. There is no arguement to this. These are the principles our country is based on.

As far as religion is concerned I’m afraid that’s a different story. AND THIS IS WHERE THE ARGUEMENT IS. This is where opinions are at last relevant.

And here’s mine.

Judgement is unfortunately one of the cornerstones of Christianity. I’m sure that’s gonna spark some debate (And one I would love to get into) but for the purpose of this there is no ignoring it. It’s what Christians do. They make rules. If you do not follow those rules they condemn you.
They define reality with right and wrong and with do’s and don’ts.

But here’s where the arguement gets tricky.

Christians, “in my opinion”, not only have every right to decide if homosexual marriage is “right” for them, but they MUST. It’s what they do, it’s how they define themselves. It’s how they exist.

The point. If Christians don’t like the idea of a church sponsered Gay Marriage then that’s WONDERFUL. It’s just peachy. It’s their right. It’s what they do.

If Christians decide that the idea of church sponsered Gay Marriages is okay then that too is WONDERFUL. It’s their right. It’s what they do.

As for me, as long as all humans are equal and enjoy the same rights,
I say its up to you individually to choose to like it or not like it.