Looking for opponent for PBEM AA50 1942 setup, no NOs, no tech, bid for sides, use TripleA map/dice roller.

Dave,
Great meeting you again.  Didn’t get a chance to play 1914, but I did get to see your “industrial production” poker chips in action–cool stuff!

Greg,
Fantastic job as always!  Can’t believe another year has come and gone. The day went fast.  Some great door prizes, too, by the way.  Diplomacy, Ikusa, signed AA 1914, signed set of AA 1940 global, just to name a few. Thanks for making it all happen yet again.

Played 3 games of 1942 (4:45 rounds, instant win if 10VC (Allies) or 9VC (Axis), otherwise most VC at end of time wins)
1. Played Axis (6 IPC to Allies ) - Allies conceded after fall of Moscow in round 5, Leningrad having fallen earlier, with US having chance to take one VC in Pacific but not two.  On pace for a 7 round game.
2. Played Allies, accepting a 20 IPC bid - barely got a 5th round in, at start of which Axis held Leningrad and Allies held Shanghai; in round 5, Axis conquered Moscow while US conquered Tokyo for a narrow 7-6 VC win.  However, had the Japanese distributed fighters more evenly between Manila and Tokyo, this game could easily have gone to the Axis.
3. Played Axis (6 IPC to Allies ) - Allies conceded in round 6 (11 tnk/1bmb German build in Russia/Caucasus), Moscow having fallen in round 5 (sensing a theme?); on pace for an 8 round game.  Japanese fleet was able to resurrect time and again to keep the US fleet at bay.

First time playing 1942 2nd edition in a tourney. Seems a bit limited in strategic options, certainly for tournament play but I’d venture to say also for out of the box victory conditions.  Nearly all the Allied Atlantic fleets are demolished on G1, and every SZ surrounding Great Britain is within range of the German Baltic fleet plus at least 5 aircraft on the coast, not to mention any remaining German subs.  So, KGF seems out of the question, and it’s KJF or bust.  This is a one-track game that reminds me of the original AA Europe, which boiled down to a march on Moscow–everything else was a sideshow.  I’m resigned to this version being the “mainstream” tourney at Greg’s events this summer, but the “side” AA50 games will be more enjoyable, I’m sure.

I’ve loaded the game file, but what dice roller are we supposed to use?  (I’m used to TripleA, which has one built in).
I see references on the forum to DAAK, Flames of Europe or rjware.net, but not sure how to proceed.  Sorry for the delays in getting started, but what do you recommend?

Thanks,
BB

@VanGal:

I see your name and Gregs’ in the new rulebook for Pacific 1940 2nd Edition.

Carl, I wasn’t aware of that–maybe it’s a carryover from the 1st edition playtesting.  In any case, I’m not fan enough of the game to want to play, but remember the original Pacific?  Now that was a excellent game!  Thanks for the congrats.

@VanGal:

We only need to extend GenCon for an additional week so that we can play '42, AA50, and Global instead of having to choose  :-(

Amen, brother!  I would LOVE to be able to play in more than one tourney, mostly non-overlapped.  One way to make the AA50 and AA42 tourneys that way would be: 
AA50:  all day Thursday = one qualifier, 2-rounds of Swiss pairings (like record paired with like), cut to top 8 for single elimination; Friday = quarterfinals + semifinals; Sunday = finals
AA42:  all-day Sat = “Mega” tourney, single elimination; Sunday = finals
That way teams playing in the AA50 single elimination on Friday could still play in AA42 on Saturday.  One issue would be if there are more than 16 teams for AA42, you would need to add an extra round on Friday evening, but even then only the AA50 semi-finalists would have to choose whether to separate to play in both tourneys or not.  Another drawback would be folks would have to show up on Thursday to make the single AA50 qualifier.  Some people only come on Fri-Sat, so that would cut them out.

Jeff

Greg,

Congrats on another fantastic job at GenCon as GM of all things Axis and Allies!  I could see you, Kelly and Mike working hard to keep the casual and tourney A&A scenes running smoothly.

I had an absolute blast playing 30 hours of AA50 with squirecam!  Also met several new folks that way, including a law professor in town at UC that would like to play AA50 again sometime.

Thanks again for the TON of work you put into the cons.  I know it’s a HUGE sacrifice of time on your part, but it definitely makes this hobby something extraordinary and helps bring together a bunch of a good guys from around the country.

Peace,
Jeff (BB)

@djensen:

First, I’m all for trying the chess-clock

Me, too, but I have a different preference than some on how it might be implemented.

@djensen:

…if we come up with a set of rules that are well-thought out and thoroughly tested.

Thorough testing is the key, so that we catch all the glitches that inevitably come up.

I don’t think I like the idea of winning or losing a game due to “timing out.”  Talk about a real change to the OTB “feel,” that’s a big one.  Only getting 5 rounds done in 6 hours is lamentable, but at least you play for 6 hours, and you win or lose based on the state of the board (control of VCs, IPC count).  Winning or losing based on time seems a bit drastic, and I’m thinking I’d find it unsatisfying on either end.  We could consider instead applying a penalty–for example, if you time out, you lose all 9-9 ties, or you have to win 11-7 on VCs or something like that.

For example, AA50 tourney game, 5:46 = 346 total minutes (+15 minutes grace if at UK or later in last round)
Try 3 stages on the chess clock:
1st stage - must complete 6 rounds in 250 minutes (~42 min rounds or 7 min/country/turn), 125 minutes per team; if a team times out, they lose all 9-9 VC ties at end of game
2nd stage – must complete the 7th round in 54 minutes, 27 minutes per team; if a team times out, they must win by 11-7 VC or better at end of game; otherwise, they lose
3rd stage – must complete the 8th round in 42 minutes, 21 minutes per team; if a team times out, they immediately lose

@djensen:

Another thing to consider about the timer is that the Allies have one extra country to deal with than the Axis. Should you still split the time evenly when the Allied player has another round of purchases, combat moves, combat, and non-combat moves? There’s a lot of overhead just to complete a turn.

Yes, I think the time should still be split evenly.  As Squirecam mentioned, in AA50, it’s really 3-3 on countries, as China merges easily with US.  With 1942, I would try equal time first and see how it goes, especially since the game starts with Allies at an 7-6 advantage in victory cities (Honolulu is the 7th VC), and a 97-71 advantage in IPC count.

@djensen:

I already addressed this and thus there is no reason to throw more fuel on the fire; let’s stay on subject.

Sorry, djensen, but have to disagree and address this before getting back on topic…

Questioneer, I suspected it was too good to be true–having a civil discussion with you about chess clocks and timing rules.  And then, sure enough, your personal strafing against Greg, now broadened to include “the players at GenCon,” resurfaced en force and unprompted, quite the barrage:
@questioneer:

…its Greg Smorey that you have to convince and that is a difficult task.  He and the players at GenCon are too set in their ways.

@questioneer:

…Again, stripping the game down to nothing. That is virtually what GenCon tourny formats do- its disgusting.

@questioneer:

This is the point where Greg will get sensitive and offended and fires back lame reasons for these decisions.

Any person–particularly one like Greg who has devoted 19 summers of his life serving the A&A community as tourney organizer (TO)–would find your comments insulting and hostile. This is not the way to act like a decent human being, much less persuade others to your ideas on A&A tourney formats. A&A tourneys serve three groups: the players, WOTC, and the convention companies. You have to convince that your ideas will increase player satisfaction and turnout, which in turn will make WOTC and the con companies happier. Instead, all I hear from you is a purist vehemence about how the game SHOULD be played, and anything short of that is “lame,” “stripped down,” or “disgusting.” This from a man who has been to GenCon ONE time.

Until you recant, apologize or otherwise change your tone, I’m done listening to you.

I think the chess clock idea has merit, though, and potential application in some form of tourney. I still plan to try it out on the side at GenCon and give Greg feedback on its potential use. Combined with the input of other, less prickly, posters on this forum, I’m certain we can manage without your “help with procedures.”

BB

@Scarapis:

Then don’t tell that to WotC since in their magic tournements they have them timed, and at the end of that time whoever is up wins, thats life get over it

WOTC does not treat their A&A tournaments the same way as their Magic tournaments.  I used to play in Magic PTQs, so I know.  Magic tourneys are multiple qualifier events throughout the year, not just at the cons, and they have cash and invitations to the Pro Tour on the line (Pro Tour winners get $40,000), so that’s a whole different level of seriousness.  For A&A, at Origins and GenCon, WOTC is happy if there’s a good turnout and Greg organizes events across the variety of their product line.  For their part, players have been thrilled with the fantastic prizes Greg procures within the budget WOTC gives him.  I wouldn’t want there to be cash or some other heavy duty prize on the line because I think that has the potential to turn the tourneys ugly in a hurry.
@Scarapis:

…in a tourney of say 6 hours if ea. player/team took 15 minutes per turn, that would still allow 12 turns per player/team, which would definately give an idea of who the clear winner is, but then you will find some fault in that hypothesis, since anything that takes away from your style of play is wrong. at least BB is willing to give a try, but your ready to doom it before it starts.

Mike’s points are valid, and he is not trying to doom anything, merely trying to maintain and increase A&A event attendance at the cons across the board.  I think a timed event is worth consideration, but as I mentioned earlier, try it out in a Masters or expert level event first and see what traction it gains.  We can disagree on the number of rounds–I think 5-min country turns (15 minutes per side as you say) to fit in 12 rounds in 6 hours is a bit brisk.  Seven rounds (8.5-min country turns) or eight rounds (7.5-min country turns on average) seems more doable to me.  Also, as I talk about in the separate FTF thread that djensen started, what happens if 6 hours expires in the middle of Germany turn 8, with both sides having used up their 180 minutes exactly?  The 12-round target has not been met by either side, neither side has timed out, and the game is not at the end of a US turn.  So this format is trickier to figure out than it first seems, but still worth considering–I’m not dooming it by any means.

BB

Regarding FTF tourneys…@questioneer:

Format is a little fast- you have to play fast to get enough rounds in to feel like you’ve somewhat completed a game…still you never feel like you’ve had enough time.

I agree, when I play a 6-round game of AA50, it doesn’t feel like I’ve completed a game by OTB standards.  Given the time limit, purchases and movement in the last two rounds are always skewed toward achieving last-minute land grabs for tiebreaker points, which would never happen in an OTB game.  Even so, I consider those quirks part of the tourney format and enjoy the game none the less.

@questioneer:

Playing AA is like baseball.  Its really meant to be played by the number of rounds (innings) not timed quarters.

I can understand your point.  Six rounds in AA50 feels like it’s the start of the midgame in chess, so you can’t predict who would ultimately win were the game to be played to OTB victory.  Some players might be more satisfied with the idea of, “Hey, we have to call the game ‘early’ for Side X, but looking at the board, it was just a matter of time before they would have won anyway (gotten to 13 VC for Projection of Power, for example).”  I like the current tourney format a lot but could adapt to a format that forces games to more rounds if that’s what most folks want.

@questioneer:

Chess clocks- Came up with this idea and told Smorey awhile ago.  It was rejected b/c he did not want to have players pay for their own clocks ($20-30).  This made no sense b/c he has all players bring there own $40-90 games, so what’s $20 more dollars???

I don’t think money is the issue.  The issue is laying the chess clock requirement on folks without the grass-roots demand for it by the players.  A survey or written feedback at GenCon might help back this up or not.  Many, I would even say most, of the A&A folks that show up at the cons are there mainly to have a good time with friends, some of whom they only see once or twice a year at these events.  They could care less whether the tourney is timed by chess clock or not.

@questioneer:

Chess clock idea is simple…Players play until one side has a VC win or they reach a certain IPC threshold on their turn (usually established for the Axis).  If they run out of time that person loses “on time”.  The wins would be immediate when accomplished though (VC win or IPC win) not at the end of a complete round.

Not so simple, in my opinion.  You still need alternate victory conditions should the round time expire with neither side achieving the “checkmate” instant win (VC or IPC).  Also, some kind of round setpoint would be needed with chess clocks; otherwise, one side could win just by playing faster.  They just need enough skill to prevent the other side from getting an immediate win (VC or IPC) while playing fast, and make the other side time out.  Not a very satisfying way to win, or lose.  A round setpoint needs to be reasonably achievable (I would argue for 7 or 8 rounds for a 360-minute game), otherwise you’ll have situations where, by the rules players must play 10 rounds in 360 minutes, for example, but both sides use their 180 minutes exactly and only finish 7 rounds, or they’re on Germany’s 8th turn and time is called.

BB