Axis bid to Japan Rather than Germany?

Quick further explanation - this is based on the consideration that the game is weighted in favor of the Allies, and unless you are an excellent Axis playing a sub-optimal Allies, you will typically lose under “normal” game conditions, and even “Russia Restricted” conditions.

@greensleeves_16:

Suppose 2 players wanna play A&A and they both wanna play as allies. You got a problem then don’t you? :) Anyhow it’s solved by bids. 1st person says 8, 2nd says 6, 1st one passes. The outcome is that the 2nd player gets to play the axis and receives an additional 6 ipc (bid=6). These 6 ipc’s are spent on troops (like 2 infantry) and these are placed on the board.

oh thankx I was wondering too as I got the 2nd edition game

thanks for the explanation

I am trying to convince my friends that the russia restricted rule is needed for a fair game but they wont believe me. I would really appreciate it if someone could thouroughly explain why this rule is needed so that I may be able to print it out and show them. :-? -Thanx

let’s take a rough scenario where there is no RR. Now to begin the value of the incomes in favor of the allies (allies - 90, axis 57) with a value of the pieces in favor of the axis (axis 319, allies 298). Now let Russia attack the UKR. Assuming a conservative force and approximate odds, the Germans lose 2 arm, 1 ftr and 3 men (allies 289, axis 288). Now the allies start w/ both a unit disadvantage and massive income disadvantage (93-54). Now these numbers are largely meaningless when one considers “position” “ability to grab territory”, etc. At the same time, too look at it another way - For Russia to lose 3-4 inf, it gets to kill 2 arm, 3 inf, and a ftr. Ger never buys another fighter, and it is loathe to buy another arm this early in the game. Add to the fact that it’s Fin crew never really get going, and you have a very sorry early Axis. If you like, i could demonstrate to you in a game just how unreasonable it is to be the axis in a game of no bid, no RR.
(i don’t condone looking at value of units as a yardstick for “how well one is doing”, but it sounds like your friends require that kind of logic if they can not see otherwise how the game is balanced against the axis)

Also, along with what CC has pointed out, the loss of an irreplaceable ftr makes it that much harder to eliminate the allied navy when Ger finally gets to go and there is the possible loss of Germanys ships in the Baltic before she gets to even use them.

Hey Guys thanx a lot for your help :D
I’ll let you know if my friends come to their senses

Usually, my first move as russia without RR would be “get EE surely”. Then all aggression of germany towards the east is stalled, and the western allies have all the time in the world to “come for help”… with the losses in units and money about the same for germany as if losing UKR.

You’re right, of course F_alk. I consider:

1. Norway - It’s a sitting duck, and Germany will never retake it. This i usually leave until round 2 (unless i think i can take it w/ UK in round 1).
2. EEU - forces Germany to fall back on herself leaving UKR ripe for the pickin’s.
3. UKR - all the benefits of taking the other ones, however it robs Ger of one extra arm, and creates a handier “dead zone”. Your one guy sitting on CAU has an easier time of taking it w/ ftr support, etc.

@Soon_U_Die:

Attacking Ukr on R1 is far superior to attacking EE.

As you might have noticed, i don’t agree with that. Your fist buy as russia would be 1 tank plus inf, and the EE-gambit can go on for a very long time. Norway usually then is the first target for the western allies: with a double punch each round it should not survive round two. Taken by the US, they can build an IC there.

I think, attacking EE puts germany on the defense extremely early, taking their initiative, letting them only react to your moves and not the other way round.

yeah but when russia attacks first all of that doesn’t really matter now does it :-?

oh ok
I was blaying a bid game the other day and it was suprisingly equal but…
I was Germany, America took japan through obsenely bad rolls by japan and stupidity of my partner but… Two turns later BAM I took moscow and england Same Turn :) so then it was me against america but he conceded for some reason :-?
it was a really close game though but even through all that they say that they’ll never play with bids or RR ever again :x
What a bunch of freaken Noobs eh :-?
oh well I’ll just have to have them play axis for once to show them just how evenly matched and unbias the game is :wink:

heh heh heh

if someone is playing me and refuses to play with a bid and/or rr, i now say “well, if you think it’s that balanced, then would you mind if i played the Allies?”

Yeah, a couple of games as the axis should teach them the lesson. Having Germany surrounded by 3 allies in round 4 is no fun.

whilst i agree that the axis have a disadvantage in a vanilla game with no bids and no RR, i do not think that the odds are insurmountable. A bit like having the white pieces in chess - an advantage for sure, but black can and often does win. i also think that attacking first with Russia on turn 1 is a big mistake. assuming an attack in UKR then depending on what Russia made the attack with (and hence what was left in UKR) then I would either counterattack Karelia or Ukraine back. I would attack UKR if Russia had used a lot of tanks and therefore were left behind in UKR. Else I would attack Karelia.

No way, Leonidas. A Russian attack on R1 sets the clock back for Germany for an extra round :D . I also prefer the Eastern Europe attack. Russia can muster three tanks, two fighters, and four men. Odds wise, they should end up taking EEU with one or two tanks. Land the planes in KAR, move the four men from RUS to KAR, and put all eight men in KAR.
If Germany decides to attack KAR G1, that’s going to be really counterproductive. Not only are you using your fighters to win a land battle, leaving the bulk of UK’s navy alone, but you’re picking a battle that you probably won’t win. If Germany instead decides to attack Caucasus, they will need to move their plane over from GER or Norway. Once again, that’s one less plane that could have been used to delay UK’s naval invasion :wink: .
To sum it up, a R1 attack (assuming no RR rule) delays Germany’s attack on KAR and buys the Allies a little more time to support Russia and put pressure on Japan.

ya, the whole reason for RR is that an R1 offensive is so affective. but personaly, i always take ukr first, its just so much better than EE. the main advantage i see to it is that it alows you to take it so strongly with your inf fron cau. you can attack with 8 inf, 3 arm, 2 ftr against 3 inf, 2 arm, 1 ftr = u should take it strong (aprox 7 guys). move rus inf to kar, place 8 inf on kar. by end of r1 u can have 4 inf, 3 arm in ukr and 12 inf, 2 ftr in kar. u have effectively pushed your borders up strongly (key word) and u now have EE in your crosshairs. if they attack ukr, they can attack with max 5 inf, 4 arm, and air. if they do they will probably take it (but its not a sure thing) and they cant do anything else. next turn u can take it back even stronger and uk still has their navy.

I disagree totally - with both of you! :)

Firstly Attila: If you attack EEU then of course I dont attack KAR but blast whatever’s left in EEU to pieces. I dont attack Russia with Germany until turn 3 anyway (Build men in turn 1, move them up to EEU in turn 2 and build tanks, then in turn 3 attack KAR with overwhelming forces), so this has not delayed my German attack at all. Meanwhile 3 of Russia’s tanks have gone - so I dont need to worry about counter punches from Russia as much. Also the attack by Russia in turn 1 means I can use my Baltic fleet to help decimate the English/Russian fleet round the UK and thus perserve the German fighters.

Secondly Mr.Lee: If you attack the UKR in the way you describe I would use enough air in the counter attack to make sure the odds of me decimating what you have left in UKR are massively in my favour. And once again Russia have lost nearly all their tanks and thus their counter punching effectiveness.

Finally what both of you are missing is that if you commit so much of Russia’s resources to the fight on the European Eastern Front (which attacking in turn 1 commits you to do) you will be annihilated by Japan in Asia. All this without causing any real lasting damage to Germany!

I’ve never lost a game where Russia has attacked me in turn 1.

Well, actually thinking about it, I’ve never lost a game… but that’s another matter! :D

Firstly Attila: If you attack EEU then of course I dont attack KAR but blast whatever’s left in EEU to pieces. I dont attack Russia with Germany until turn 3 anyway (Build men in turn 1, move them up to EEU in turn 2 and build tanks, then in turn 3 attack KAR with overwhelming forces), so this has not delayed my German attack at all. Meanwhile 3 of Russia’s tanks have gone - so I dont need to worry about counter punches from Russia as much. Also the attack by Russia in turn 1 means I can use my Baltic fleet to help decimate the English/Russian fleet round the UK and thus perserve the German fighters.

Incredibly easy to counter. Turn 1, Russia attacks Ukraine. Turn 2, Russia attacks Finland. Russia Builds full infantry each turn (8 T1, 9 T2, 9 T3). That means your looking at (with 1 Infantry defending Ukraine), What, 38 Infantry in Karelia? Plus whatever Fighters or early Infantry the British and Americans have in there, plus 2 Soviet Fighters, Plus 3 (or 4) Tanks.

Secondly Mr.Lee: If you attack the UKR in the way you describe I would use enough air in the counter attack to make sure the odds of me decimating what you have left in UKR are massively in my favour. And once again Russia have lost nearly all their tanks and thus their counter punching effectiveness.

Won’t work. Your probably looking at 5 Infantry in Ukraine. Your attack force is going to consist of so few infantry that your Airforce and whatever tanks you bring along is going to be destroyed, you might capture the area but won’t hold it for another turn.

Finally what both of you are missing is that if you commit so much of Russia’s resources to the fight on the European Eastern Front (which attacking in turn 1 commits you to do) you will be annihilated by Japan in Asia. All this without causing any real lasting damage to Germany!

Attacking Turn 1 isn’t usually a good idea, but it isn’t a fatal error. A T1 English Kwangtang attack is sometimes an option.

to add to that, what i do as russia in an un-RR game when i attack ukraine first turn is move my aa gun from russia there after i take it. if germany really wants ukraine back, they have to use all their air. if i were germany in a situation like that i would not sacrifice my air.

@Soon_U_Die:

An R1 full court press is sub vs sub in the Atlantic

I also like to send the Tranny in this battle, and do not put with the UK fleet: Just to improve the odds, that this one sub really dies.