Iraq, again

@F_alk:

@yourbuttocks:

Falk, detainment of POWs is not torture. No evidence of ill-treatment has been produced. THey are not formally declared POWs you say? Did Al-Quaeda formally declare war?

AS for the points brought up in the AI report, compare the U.S. one to the German one and remember that the U.S. has several fold more people:

http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/eur/germany!Open

I never claimed that Germany is better than the US, i accused the hypocrisy (sp?) of the US though.

Al-Quaeda did not declare war, you did…. where all the Polish, Dutch, soldiers from Belgium and elsewhere taken by Nazi-soldiers not POW, because Germany did not declare war on them?

For DS:
Another small thing: The CIA expected high-end electronics in Tora-Bora… they had “ecvidence” for that. What did they find after taking it? Some weapons, most of them from the time when the Afghani people fought the soviets…
i bet you believed the CIA then as you believe it now.

Hypocrisy? So what. There’s hypocrisy in Germany too. :roll:

What was the evidence? So now you’re never going to believe another word the CIA says? That’s a dangerous game you’re playing if we start believing the word of our enemies over that of our own country…

The CIA - one might as well flip a coin as to whether one would believe anything they have to say. They lie:

1. for political reasons
2. because they don’t know the truth
3. because they only know part of the truth.

@cystic:

The CIA - one might as well flip a coin as to whether one would believe anything they have to say. They lie:

1. for political reasons
2. because they don’t know the truth
3. because they only know part of the truth.

4.) To protect the national security of this country.

I hate to interject- well no i don’t-

but I really think you nay sayers are too niave. the bush “doctrine” tends to insinuate that Iraq was basically behind al qida and thusly the 9-11 attacks, which was in response to Saddams out right hatred of us. now unlike many of you, I can rationally see this connection.
some also say that we are only in it for the oil- possibly- who knows.? but our own leftist attitudes towards the environment have left us with little other choice- unless you want to pay $5.00 a gallon for gas. and I gaurantee you- that all of you nonsense spouters would be ready to nuke saddam if that was to happen. you’ re all calling GWB a hypocrite but tell me you wouldn’t change your tune when it cost you five times as much to drive to that flippin job of yours-
I am also a veteran, and I’ve listened to all the reagan and bush bashing lately and it’s almost comical, when I grew up as a boy in germany - under carter- americans were FREQUENTLY targets for terrorist bombings and executions. My own family visited a shopping complex in78-79 the day before terrorists blew it up. now of course we knew these were communist trained and armed insurgents, but it’s amazing how little we could do about it until reagan came in. he restored pride to the military- and thru necessary - yet reckless- spending he broke the soviet union! which until that time I lived in daily fear of. I lived about 100 miles outside of Fulda- and the Fulda gap was their main avenue of entry into the rhine area. you communists have no Idea how well you have it here. you’ve never lived with duck and cover, or had to reherse evacuation plans so you could get back to the US before your dad’s unit had to blow up the country. nothing! war makes us great, war helps us insure that - IF YOU WON’T RESPECT OUR RIGHT TO PERSUE OUR INDIVIDUAL FREEDOMS WE WILL KILL YOU! you are niave to believe the world can co-exist peacefully. in the USA we exist in a state of QUASI peace. there are clashes based on religion, race, or sexual orientation everyday. but no one faction outrightly declares war on the others- why?? in America we are taught to tolerate, other countries are taught merely to hate.

And while I agree going after Saddam does look bad, GW does look awfully indecisive, I think it’s a necessary first step. we don’t want to appear to be world tyrants. and if we take on NK and Iraq that’s how it will appear. “DO something the US doesn’t like and they’ll beat you up”.
besides that if we do attack korea, do you really think china won’t intervene again?? and there IS speculation that the big red machine HAS working ICBM’s (does anyone remember what those are??)

bush’s delemia is that he allowed this to become an issue. I almost think he’s hoping saddam will except exile to allow a peaceful more western friendly regime to assend.
the problem with war in either case is the one we faced in the desert the first time- if you destroy the only government that region has known, YOU MUST COMMIT MASSIVE AMMOUNTS OF TROOPS there to prevent a civil war until the society can realize democracy. the war won’t kill US troops- the peacekeeping will cost billions of tax dollars and perhaps hundreds of lives.
PS before you all deny being communists - remember that they call themselves socialists too. :D

pps I almost get the impression from some of your views that you believe that if you were a little baby, who some how got stranded in the wilderness, that somehow a mother wolf would take you in as her cub and raise you as part of the pack! yeah right-

ah yes I knew you’d be out there to disagree with me - cool.

I realize that many people don’t accept a connection between osama and saddam, and I realize that there may be some philosophical differenses involved, but - here goes- some colonel was talking on the hannity show - on radio- about connections between terrorist training grounds in Iran, Iraq, and lebanon. and these terrorist groups are not only from osamma’s organization but also from the various palestinian/ lebonese organizations that threaten our good friends in isreal. and the thought was that saddam only need make available one bomb, not for the US- of course one small container of e-bolia will kill most of us, but for tel aviv or jerusalem.

and that thing about the $5.00 per gallon is a direct correlation between our friends the back stabbing saudi’s controlling the region, or saddam controlling it. and let’s not mince words- he’s a dictator, he wants control and respect. he wants the oil. but I’m not so sure he wants an a** whoopin for taking it. sure he doesn’t have control now- but let him get nukes and he will.

I will grant you that giving stinger missiles away to rebels fighting for freedom against the oppressive soviet juggernaut does seem a bit foolish in hind sight. but at the time we were still fighting against communism. no-one gave much thought to what would happen if we won.

the 70’s and early 80’s were a rough time for american’s in europe. I was only a small child then (I’m 29) I grew up only knowing that these people wanted to kill me and my dad. I didn’t understand why. there isn’t any reason, they have serious problemssomeone tells them it’s your fault, then they get a gun and try to kill you for some percieved injustice.

Yanny’s right about Saddam and Osama. The Arab countries and terrorist leaders all hate each other but the only one thing they can all agree on is that they hate certain others more, such as the United States and Israel.

In terms of North Korea, I doubt China would intervene and use nuclear weapons. The Chinese government is responsible enough to know the danger in using such weapons. They are merely deterent. Even the crazed Kruschnev in the Cuban Misile Crisis knew the danger and msot likely would not have used his nuclear arsenal. He was jsut trying to win a victory for the USSR.

The only difference in Iran is that Iran hates the Untied States for eliminating their leader Mossadegh in a coup and installing the pro-American shah. Some belief in choosing your own government. You can choose it, as long as the US likes it. Iranians are still bitter about that.

What’s wrong with Communism? It comes from the word “community”. There’s nothing wrong with supporting a community. It does not make you a horrible person and a traitor to your country. The Cold War is long over. Communism was never the danger to spread across the world. The USSR did not want to conquer the world and make it Communist. It wanted to secure its security and put itself in a position where it could keep the Americans at bay. This was accomplished mostly through Communist governmetns in countriesin Eastern Europe and South East Asia. There’s no shame in being a Communist. All it is is a different economic system. Calling someone a “Commie” isn’t an insult. The Cold War is over. Communism won’t take over the world and it is not a danger to everyone like people thought. Just because someone may be a Communist, doesn’t mean they don’t believe in attacking Iraq. This terminology has nothing to do with whether or not someone wants to invade Iraq.

emu god
I can’t believe you just said the communists never wanted to take over the world! are you insane? their doctrine was to crush all opposition! I know I lived there!! Have you ever heard of the belin air lift? that was just one of countless tugs of war to see if we’d flinch so the soviets could dominate Europe.
HOWEVER that being said Kruschev was a great man- he was a hero at stalin grad- and even took gen. paulus’ pistol. HE alone knew the true danger of the cuban missle crisis. while american generals urged kennedy to storm the beaches in cuba, he knew the soviets had orders to nuke the US on sight. HE backed Down when HE had the position of strength, even though it meant his career and reputation were over- to save his grand daughter and the entire world.

besides communist societies suck- they rob the wealthy and middle class to create an almost serf like class (I said serf like not smurf like)- subjegated by and oppressed by a large military, controlled by wealthy an priviledged members of the party. we don’t run over anti gov. protesters with tanks. unfortunately we have to let them BLA BLA BLA
Yanny this thread is getting to big. please tell me how to fast forward to the end (of every posting ?) or can you start a new thread?

I’ll agree to disagree on the communism and the missle crisis, although I have heard that the russians at the time only had 5 operational starategic bombers. It’s like my daddy always said if you want friends don’t discuss religion or politics- you say propaganda I say perspective- who’s to say who is right. in the end it’s our perspective that with either lead us to greatness or ruin- and even that’s a matter of perspective.- I gotta go hope to argue some more tomarrow. maybe next time I’ll win? :evil: :roll:

@alamein:

besides communist societies suck- they rob the wealthy and middle class to create an almost serf like class (I said serf like not smurf like)- subjegated by and oppressed by a large military, controlled by wealthy an priviledged members of the party. we don’t run over anti gov. protesters with tanks. unfortunately we have to let them BLA BLA BLA
Yanny this thread is getting to big. please tell me how to fast forward to the end (of every posting ?) or can you start a new thread?

Not all the Communist societies in the world are like that. My exampel for you is the Israeli kibbutz, which has lasted as long as the USSR itself. The kibbutz is democratic, people may enter and leave if they wish, everyone gets an equal allowance and there are no Israeli froces there to make sure the voting council has its own way. This is exactly the Western propoganda that was used, similar to the Soviet propoganda.

Kruschnev wont the Cuban Missile Crisis. He forced the Americans to withdraw from Turkey. That was the Cold War. The only negotiatio nthat could occur was won where both sides could claim they won. Kennedy was able to tell the Americans after the end of hte crisis that they had driven the Soviets from Cuba and all they had to give up were some worthless basesin Turkey while Kruschnev was able to tell the Soviet people that he had given up the misiles in Cuba but had forced the Americans out of their strategic Turkish listening posts. Both sides were able to show that they had “won” though it was hte americans who had to make concessions.

The original goal of Stalin was not to take over the world, but rather along with the Americans, to ensure that Germany could never threaten the USSR or the world again like it did in World War 2. Stalin wanted to set up Eastern Europe as a buffer zone between the USSR and Western Europe to prevent another Operation Barbarossa. His fear was that a United Germany could stop once again invade the USSR, and 15 million dead was a lot to the Soviets in WW2, another invasion could cost many millions more.

Many people do not know that Kruschnev had the ability to already launch nuclear weapons from Cuba, but he did not do so because his goal was not to precipitate a war, but to force the US to concede and lose its prestige.

The post-World War 2 division was similar to the end of the Napoleonic Wars. Then, the British attempted to re-organize europe so that France could not rise again and do what Napoleon did. This left the vaccuum open for Germany to unite and become the next major power on the continent until after World War 2, where the Allies re-shaped Europe to stop GErmany from rising. This let the Warsaw Pact become more powerful as the Soviet Union gained influence and forced the creation of NATO. The governmetns in the Cold War were looking to prevent the past, not to making peace in the future.

So are the images of Cruise Missles cleanly destroying Iraqi compounds.

How is that inaccurate?

And the obscuring of US deaths in Afganistan.

Okay, so how many soliders have died in Afganhistan?

Anyways, back to the IRAQ SUBJECT. We already know the man is in material breach of the United Nations resolution. It’s clear as day. Bush has said it, and Hans Blix has said it. We don’t need any other reason to initiate war against Saddam. The people calling for more time for inspectors are NEVER going to support a war (or should I say: "Never going to support a Bush war.). The greater good will come when Iraq is liberated from this monster.

we are not a democracy WE ARE A REPUBLIC which is a representative form of democracy- but one in which you the ordinary joe only are as important as your representative

last word.

yeah, we’re a democratic republic, not a democracy. a democracy actually does not involve people voting for the people in office, all the people chosen to office are selected by lots, like in classical age Athens (circa 450 BC) the only voting that goes on in a democracy is for laws, and to appoint generals

the whole weapons inspectors deal is so retarded. honestly, do any of you actually think for a second that if Iraqi had nuclear weapons that they would leave them in a place where we could find them?? no way, they probably hid them underground, or loaded one onto a truck and are just driving around the deserts avoiding the inspectors, or they could have them ANYWHERE except for the places where our inspectors are looking. it will be very hard for us to find out if they do have nuclear weapons, b/c if they do then they are obviously hiding them in a secure place away from the inspectors. I know that they still have nuclear/biological weapons, b/c what evidence have they shown us that they got rid of them??? everbody is always saying “what evidence do you have that saddam has nuclear/biological weapons?” IRAQIS are the ones that need to show us evidence, the evidence that he got rid of those weapons. we know FOR SURE that he had biological weapons in '91, when he gassed the Kurds, what evidence has he shown us that he got rid of those??