Russia's First Move

[googie7745]

Russia’s first turn should basically consist of this:

Russia should attack Manchuria with five infantry, one tank, and the fighter from Russia. This battle you should win with about two infantry and one tank left. Land the fighter in Yakut and move the two infantry from Evenki there for backup against Japan.Â

RUSSIA MUST ATTACK UKRAINE!!! Attack it with eight infantry, three tanks, and your Karelian fighter. You will win it with about four infantry and three tanks remaining. Land the fighter in Karelia, and move the four infantry from Russia into Karelia for it’s defense.  Â

Attack the German sub in the Western Europe sea zone with your sub from Karelia and move your transport into the UK sea zone for it’s defense.Â

Now I will explain why you need to attack Ukraine instead of Eastern Europe. The German’s best move against the Russians is to take Karelia, and it has the power to do this easily ( 11 inf, 6 tanks within range). But with the three infantry and two tanks (two tanks as opposed to one is really the kicker) gone, a German attack has basically lost it’s punch, and whatever they manage to take Karelia with (against your four infantry and fighter) can easily be retaken with your three to four infantry and three tanks in Ukraine and whatever you have in Russia. Also, the fighter from that area could be landed in a German-occupied Karelia to help defend it against your counterattack. By the end of Russia’s second turn, Germany will be screwed on the Eastern Front.

Also, if and when Manchuria falls back to the Japanese, don’t move your two infantry and fighter in Yakut, leave them there and don’t attack with them, let them defend.

Now you are making 30 dollars per turn, you have basically castrated Germany in the East, and you have severely jeopardized Japan’s Asian holdings. I recommend buying two infantry, a tank, and a fighter. Put the infantry in Karelia to defend it better (six infantry and a fighter) and put the tank and fighter in Russia to attack German-occupied Karelia next turn.  Â

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[cystic crypt]

One may wish to “straffe” the Ukraine - i.e. hit it so that there is only an ftr on it - so that you can bring your units back to Karelia so as not to get hit by an all out attack there by Germany as you posted in another article.

[Jermofoot]

Mmm…I think what you actually do is castrate Russia, not Germany…atleast not for an appreciable amount of time.
You have eliminated the majority of your defense in an offense that gives you some initial reward, but nothing lasting.  Your follow-up purchase will not hold up to a German assault.  A better buy would be three men and three tanks, but still would not help much.

Eliminating Eastern Europe is a much better move because you WILL NOT take Karelia back if you attack Ukraine.  Germany will take and hold Karelia (blitzing and such), threatening you further by taking your IC.  Blocking Germany from moving out of Central Europe while also cutting off its forces in Eastern Europe is a grand strategy that can not be mirrored through any other attack.  Also, I’ve tried taking Manchuria, it seems about a 50-50 chance, but unless you are lucky, you aren’t going to be left with much.  Plus, Japan will make short work of any remaining forces while you are contending with Germany, then will drop a couple of tanks to blitz through your open backyard.

I will try your suggestion, but I have my doubts.

[Linkon]

Rus can not really afford to purchase ftrs so early.  And if they did buy ftrs, they cannot afford to so carelessly let them get killed.

For the same $12, 4 inf defend and attack better,  2 arm defend about the same and attack better.

For Kar, losing 6 inf + ftr is really wasteful.  It would be better to just leave a single inf and reserve your surviving forces and reinforcements to counterattack.

[Guest]

@Jermofoot:

Eliminating Eastern Europe is a much better move because you WILL NOT take Karelia back if you attack Ukraine.  Germany will take and hold Karelia (blitzing and such), threatening you further by taking your IC.

You forget that UK also gets a swipe at Karelia and may “free” it for Russia to be able to build there in R2.  If Germany splits forces, they may or may not take Karelia, and if they do, Russia CAN retake it in R2 using their Ukraine force.

@Jermofoot:

Also, I’ve tried taking Manchuria, it seems about a 50-50 chance, but unless you are lucky, you aren’t going to be left with much.

Add the Russia fighter, really changes the odds in Manchuria.

@Jermofoot:

Plus, Japan will make short work of any remaining forces while you are contending with Germany, then will drop a couple of tanks to blitz through your open backyard.

Now THAT is the key to Japan strategy.  But initially you want INF not tanks.  Tanks start coming in in J2.

[Linkon]

@ncscswitch:

@Jermofoot:

Also, I’ve tried taking Manchuria, it seems about a 50-50 chance, but unless you are lucky, you aren’t going to be left with much.

Add the Russia fighter, really changes the odds in Manchuria.

The cost of that ftr for the Man battle will likely be the loss of Kar.  Losing Kar is severely penalizing to the allied cause.  Gaining Man is nice,  but the allies will need a navy to directly threaten Jpn.  Kar has an IC that is a single move away from taking Rus.  The Allies will need to hold Man for at least 3 rounds to build an IC and enough trns for an invasion.  Veterans will generally view the protection of Kar as a higher priority than the taking of Man.

[Guest]

@Linkon:

Veterans will generally view the protection of Kar as a higher priority than the taking of Man.

As a vet, I disagree.  Karelia CAN be held without that fighter.  And without that fighter, Japan is going to kick Russia’s butt all the way to Moscow.

Remember, UK can assist in Karelia with fighters or land forces for defense, and even “freeing” it after a Germany taking of it that still allows Russia to build there.

But against Manchuria, that is all up to the Russians.  And the long-term benefits to Russia of taking it (and re-taking it as needed) is an extra INF EVERY ROUND against Germany; not to mention the revenue “saved” by forcing Japan to keep attacking Manchuria instead of engaging in a march on Moscow that grinds down Russia IPC’s.

With Manchuria, Russia builds 9 INF.  Without it, they quickly get dropped to 6 INF.

And 3 INF a round is FAR better than 1 fighter once.

Personally, I view Manchuria as SO important to Russia that I routinely build from 1 to 3 INF (depending on how well things are going with Germany) in Russia to march toward Yakut to aid in blocking Japan, and to serve as land forces for repeated fighter-supported invasions of Manchuria.

If Russia can keep Japan from STARTING a move with land forces in Manchuria, then Japan stays AT LEAST 4 MOVES from Moscow.  And THAT will win the war for the allies, everytime.

Besides, in a worst case scenario, that fighter can “fly home” to Russia on the round BEFORE Germany hits Russia (even after being used on offense in Manchuria), adding an extra 4 to the defense of the homeland; IF needed.

And just FYI:
When I play the Allies, Russia takes Manchuria on R1, re-takes it on R2, and then holds of a Japan offensive in Yakut in J3. That means Japan will not crack Yakut until J4, reach Novo or Evenk until J5, and that (barring other forces being brought to bear) Japan will have only minimal forces to attack Russia in J6.  Meanwhile, as Russia I have been building INF at a prodigious rate thanks to the retained Asian income to hold off Germany while UK and USA muster their forces and begin to beat the snot out of Germany (which is now out of an airforce, out of a navy, and low on offensive land forces thanks to Russia building more units per round than Germany.)

That fighter means 2 more Russia units in Manchuria come J1, allows for a second seizure of Manchuria on R2 by being the main attack roll supporting 2 INF that moved from Evenk to Yakut in R1, and provides enough defense to block Japan on J3.  And in my book, that is a FAR better trade than adding it to what already is a VERY strong defense agaisnt Germany.  If you add in the “Kwangtung Maneuver” by UK, you can slow Japan down by ANOTHER round, making it Round 7 before they get their first attack on Moscow, with MINIMAL forces available to attempt it, it will be round 8 or 9 before Japan can actually attack in force.

And if UK and USA are not already so far advanced on their offensive strategies that no help is coming against one or both Axis powers by Round 7, then they DESERVE TO LOSE.

[aaFiendish]

@Linkon:

The cost of that ftr for the Man battle will likely be the loss of Kar.  Losing Kar is severely penalizing to the allied cause.

It really depends on the circumstances. If attacking manchuria is an option, this must not be RR. I also assume there is no bid because of the thread starter’s experience, and because some type of bid would probably be placed into man. Therefore, assuming russia can attack, I do not think at ALL that the ftr for the man battle will be the loss of KAR. As I seem to be repeatedly arguing, a german attack on karelia is really not all that frightening. Even if russia in the west only takes out the baltic navy, the attack against karelia is G: 9inf + 7 arm + 5ftr + 1 bmb vs. R: 19inf + 3tnk + 1 ftr + aagun. That gives germany a 47% chance of taking. As russia, that’s a chance I am willing to take.

[Jermofoot]

Ah…the Russian fighter.  Forgot about that unit.  If I was playing A&A and wanted Manchuria, it probably would go along.
Sometimes I send it to India to support an IC build for UK1.

[Guest]

@Jermofoot:

Ah…the Russian fighter.  Forgot about that unit.  If I was playing A&A and wanted Manchuria, it probably would go along.
Sometimes I send it to India to support an IC build for UK1.

Your posts elsewhere indicate taht you, as I, as are strong Japan player.

Trust me, that Russia fig being used in Manchuria is a BITCH for Japan… means Manchuria is harder to re-take, and allows for a second attack against it.

The best way to counter the Russia Fighter being used in Manchuria and landed in Yakut is to “all in” Japan against Asian continent.  That means you keep your Battleship in Sea of Japan to kill 1 INF on the amphib.  Grab the Wake INF and the Japan INF with the Transport to land in Manchuria, and support with fighters as needed.  Extra INF can be grabbed from Kwangtung if UK did not attack in UK1.  If you are exceptionally paranoid, bring the Phillipines INF up to land also, plus your other Battleship (kill another Russia INF on landing) and your carrier with its fighter.

Use the sub to kill that pesky UK transport.  You have enough forces in the Sea of Japan that USA will NOT attack it in US 1, and if they do, the US fleet is gone (just like it was if you attacked it at Hawaii), and you can get down to business.

This means “passing” on Pearl Harbor 2, but securing the Asian continent is worth far more than Hawaii.

[Jermofoot]

If Russia took Manchuria on R1, I would definitely try to take it back as Japan on J1.  I would still try and execute Pearl Harbor, if possible, as well as attack other inland positions.

What’s interesting is that after I learned how powerful (and fun) Japan can be, I tried to find ways to counter them.  My first solution was to push them off the mainland by having Russia attack Manchuria, UK attack Burma (I’ve taken it before), and have US mop up.  I’m not sure how effective it is, but it could limit Japan’s expansion, giving the Allies enough time to assault (mainly the US with Russia moving some land units down) and whittle their dollars enough that they lose momentum.  It’s risky, but doable.  On the other hand, pulling back and consolidating has worked pretty well for me, but usually ends up with a longer game.  Anyone have a preference?

And yes, I’m a strong Japan player.  I’d consider myself an aggressive player for any nation, though (but I love being Japan!).

[Guest]

A man after my own heart… a Japan player :-)

You are right, Manchuria MUST be re-taken.  Indeed Manchuria is the key to weakening Russia.  Without it being held by Japan, Russia is too damn strong for Germany to hold up for long.

Elsewhere I posted my fave openning move for Japan:  Manchuria, China, Australia, and UK tranpsport (if in range of sub) with a build of 2 trans and 3 INF.

You asked about the fighters that can be brought to bear on Sea of Japan transport fleet in Round 2.  First off I should have said “airforce” not “fighters”

First the obvious:
Russia figther from Yakut (the one that started in Russia and was flown in to support Manchuria invasion on R1 and landed in Yakut)
UK fighter from India (lands in Manchuria after Russians take it in R1)
US fighter from China (lands either in China or in Manchuria if Japan failed to retake)

So that is 3.

Now:
UK Bomber.  After us in UK1, it lands in Russia.  I routinely do this since it can still reach Germany, or it can reach any Japan IC on the continent (which initially would have no AA and thus be a free bombing).  Can land in Manchuria, Yakut, or China.  Combinmed with India fighter this is a 2 piece 2 and 4 attack on Japan tranny’s in UK2.
US Bomber.  After Japan attacks Pearl (without transports), US Bombers flies to Sea of Japan (Western US, Western US sea zone, Hawaii, Wake, Sea of Japan) and lands in Manchuria after the attack (if Japan failed to re-capture).  Combine with China fighter for another 3 and 4 attack on a maximum of 5 trannys (most likely 4).  Eastern US fighter flies to Hawaii (is totally safe from Japan Navy since no tranny’s to allow a landing there)

So the sequence of attacks at this point is:  US attacks trannys with fighter and bomber in US 1.  USSR attacks with Fighter in R2.  UK attacks with Fighter and Bomber in UK2.

In all likelyhood, that leaves Japan with NO transports for J2.

For follow up UK can fly remaining fighter (they may or may not have lost one of their UK fighters in round 1 against Germany and then landed in Russia) to Novo.  This leaves it in position to assist in Karelia if needed, or to attack Japan in Sea of Japan on UK3.

US attacks “new” J2 build tranny’s with Hawaii fighter in US2 (landing in Russian held Manchuria) and UK attacks with 1 or 2 original UK fighters that are based in Novo to land in Russian held Manchuria in UK3.  This assumes Japan failed to retreat their “Pearl Harbor 2” fleet back to Japan.

Of course if Japan did retreat it’s fleet, then US still holds Hawaii, Manchuria is one tough nut to crack with Russian INF from Evenk, possibly US INF from China and/or Sinkiang, and fighters from Russia, UK and US sitting there.

So much for Japan moving on Russia, or anywhere else since the only tranny’s they have on the board were BUILT in J2 and can;t be used until J3.

Meanwhile, US sent their Battleship and Tansport to the South Pacific in US2 to take Solomons and start munching up islands in the South Pacific; perhaps backed up by a new carrier and fighter built in US1 if US decided to go after Japan instead of Germany.  Russia has been doing a slow INF build toward the east, sending 1 or 2 INF a round from Russia toward Manchuria.

Of course, if Japan saw that US fleet and attacked IT in J2, then those fighters in Manchuria from EVERY allied nation, will decimate the NEXT round of Japan tranny’s.  And with Japan’s heavy navy sitting off California, the “new” tranny’s will be undefended AGAIN in the following round.

Game over.

[DarthMaximus]

You should probably start playing with bids to help out the axis.  You seem like a pretty good player who is ready to move on.

Quite frankly it doesn’t matter what Russia does on R1 (straight up) the Allies are going to win the game.

For the sake of argument though, I’ll Retake Man (heavy), probably take Chi, and do a variation of Pearl Lite.

The Reason bids should be considered is here is a typical R1 turn

1)  Attack Ger sub with Rus sub (either win or chase off ger sub)
2)  Kill Ger ships in baltic (2 ftrs, 1 trn)
3)  Strafe/take Ukr
4)  Strafe/take Man (or just reinforce yak)

There is just too much damage you can do.  Russia is far to powerful when played right.  Hence the need for RR with a 9-12 bid or just a 21-24 bid game.