Balancing Cruiser (CL) and Battleship (BB) units with other A&A units

[Genghis Khan]

Ok I did 8 BBs vs 20 DDs with DDs unchanged and BBs at A5D5C20 and the BBs won with one BB left over, so we can make BBs at 5/5 and that would make them better in combat than DDs (but only slightly).

I tested the same battle with BBs @ 6/6 and the BBs had 4 BBs left at the end of the battle.

I tested also BBs @ 4/4 against standard DDs and the DDs won easily. So the BB definitely needs a buff compared to DD.

I propose that the BB be AT LEAST 5/5 to make it worth buying over DD.

[Genghis Khan]

@Baron:

@Genghis:

Ok so according to my calculations, the battleship needs to be M2A6D6C20 to be better in combat than current DDs. BB needs to be better in combat than DDs because DD’s abilities are better than BB’s ability.

Now if you make the point that M2A6D6C20 is better than two cruisers M2A3D3C10, than we have to give the cruiser a unique role in the game so that every ship is worth taking.
Do you meant Battleship A5 D5 M2 C20?

Axis and Allies basic assumption is that cheaper fodder unit, Infantry, are always more cost and combat value efficient than costlier unit.

Making Destroyer less combat efficient than Cruiser and Battleship is radical perspective change.

IMO, it is easier to assume that Infantry is better cost efficient in land battle than Tank.
But for warships, it seems sounder that paying for a costlier unit, you get a more powerful and efficient one, or at least of similar efficiency. Otherwise, it is not optimized to buy such bulkier ones if smaller ones get the job done for better price.
This last point should be open up for debate about balancing warships within themselves.

Yes but tank has extra ability compared to infantry, that’s why you buy it. (move 2, blitz). In a fleet, a destroyer defending a fleet has the same role as a BB or cruiser and even has extra abilities. It’s already been proven that the DD fights better than the cruiser and BB and also has extra abilities compared to them

[baron Münchhausen]

Larry and consorts would say Cruiser and BB get Shore Bombardment.
And Cruiser get the most cost efficient.
2 Cruisers combined with 1 Inf and 1 Art get 10 attack points, avg. 3 hits and only lost 2 units.

Overkill in defense have no impact on BB and Cruiser while air support may be shut down.

[Genghis Khan]

most of the time the bombardment is a joke. only once per battle. I have never seen anyone buy a cruiser or BB except for new players. If Larry tries to justify they are balanced, he clearly has not playtested the game.

Also I tested 20 AC costed at 20 IPCs with current stats against 40 BB with 5/5 and the AC won with 5 planes remaining. It’s because they can tip all their carriers and take the carriers off as casualties before the planes. this is what makes them OP. They should probably cost around 24 IPCs to be balanced.

[baron Münchhausen]

On Carriers vs BBs, historical purist would say that BBs were becoming obsolete in WW2.
I’m pretty confident you don’t need autokill A6 D6 but only A5 D5 to get interesting results against DDs.
Also, 2 hits should be considered.
Loosing carrying capacity, is not easy decision to make compared to tipping BB.

10 Carriers A0 D2 C16, 2 hits with 20 Fgs A3 D4 C10, against 18 BB A5 D5 C20, 2 hits

Carriers on offense get no chance to survive.

As far as I can try various combinations, even on defense, full Carrier is not better against BB A5 D5, 2 hits.

There is probably a mistake in your simulation, is it  really:
10 Carriers A0 D2 C20, 2 hits with 20 Fgs A3 D4 C10, against 20 BB A5 D5 C20, 2 hits?

[Genghis Khan]

sorry i had made a mistake in my initial simulation. the BBs actually won with 10bbs surviving lol.

I just finished 38 BBs at 5/5 vs 20ACs D2 (with 40 fighters of course) and the battle ended with one BB vs 1 fighter.

[Genghis Khan]

Sea Unit Proposal Rev 2:

Subs: unchanged

Destroyers: can only cancel ability of subs on a 1:1 basis. If 1 DD and 5 planes attack 10 subs, only one sub can be hit.

Cruisers: Now cost 10. In addition, they have the Target Selection (Air) rule which means when a hit is scored by a cruiser, an air unit must be taken as a casualty if any is present.

Battleships: Now attack, defend and bombard on 5s

Aircraft Carriers: Now cost 18.

Please discuss

[baron Münchhausen]

A lot depend on what you are aiming for.
IMO, there is no need to modify CV. On offense, it is weaker vs Cruiser C10 and BB A5 D5.
Against a lot of StBs, it is barely manageable to get a working fleet DD+CV+Fgs with a few TPs, on the same IPCs basis. Adding BB or Cruiser can now be part of optimal defensive fleet.

Target selection is a matter of taste and flavor.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Genghis:

sorry i had made a mistake in my initial simulation. the BBs actually won with 10bbs surviving lol.

I just finished 38 BBs at 5/5 vs 20ACs D2 (with 40 fighters of course) and the battle ended with one BB vs 1 fighter.

What do you use to make this simulation?
AACalc get some limitations.

[Genghis Khan]

I do it by hand, very tedious process but it works :). I add up the attack and defense punch and divide by 6 to calculate hits in each round and keep going from there.

My issue was that carrier at C16 is too strong in terms of defense. And don’t worry, I’m planning on changing the Strategic Bombers because they are quite OP.

suggestion 1: bombers may choose to attack at low or high altitude. low altitude attack at 4 but subject to AA fire by cruiser and BB (work just like regular AA, imagine ships are AA guns for that purpose). high altitude, attack at 3 but not subject to any AA fire.

suggestion 2: strategic bomber unchanged but attack at 3 against sea zones.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Genghis:

I do it by hand, very tedious process but it works :). I add up the attack and defense punch and divide by 6 to calculate hits in each round and keep going from there.

My issue was that carrier at C16 is too strong in terms of defense. And don’t worry, I’m planning on changing the Strategic Bombers because they are quite OP.

Your method is very approximate, it works to get a general idea in f-2-f game but willing statistical accuracy, it is better to rely on AACalc simulations which does 10 000 combats to get results.

4 Cruiser A3 will not get 2 hits 100% of time in a single combat round, for instance.
Rather 6% to get no hit or 4 hits, 25% to get 1 hit or 3 hits and 38% to get 2 hits.

If you want to know the method using AACalc and numbers for Carrier compared to other ships:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32255.msg1227352#msg1227352
The true balanced scale for pure combat value is SS 7- DD 8- CA 10- CV 16- BB 18

On a 50% vs 50% odds of survival on same IPCs basis, actually Carriers should be lowered to 15 IPCs based on avg between offence and defense.
Either if 2 hits BB is A4 D4 C18 or A5 D5 C20
But since Carrier has a specific role and will stay useful, there is no need to change cost, 16 will make it popular even if Cruiser and BB are stronger or cheaper.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Genghis:

I do it by hand, very tedious process but it works :). I add up the attack and defense punch and divide by 6 to calculate hits in each round and keep going from there.

My issue was that carrier at C16 is too strong in terms of defense. And don’t worry, I’m planning on changing the Strategic Bombers because they are quite OP.

suggestion 1: bombers may choose to attack at low or high altitude. low altitude attack at 4 but subject to AA fire by cruiser and BB (work just like regular AA, imagine ships are AA guns for that purpose). high altitude, attack at 3 but not subject to any AA fire.

suggestion 2: strategic bomber unchanged but attack at 3 against sea zones.

Making StBs A3 D1 M6 C12 works great.
Adding a +1A Fg combined arms to get A4 works to lower StBs efficiency too.

There is many ways to go and also going against purely AACalc balanced scale cost depending on giving different capacity, for example making Cruiser M3 with AAA vs up to 3 planes is enough to make it interesting at 12 IPCs. (Same as a Tank M2 compared to Artillery M1.)

So balancing per cost ratio is not the only aspect, simplicity and historical depiction can be others.
So what is your main goal by trying to tweak some rules?

[baron Münchhausen]

Placing DD at 6 IPCs vs Cruiser at 10 IPCs increase the gap CA cost/DD cost: 1.67 compare to OOB 12/8 = 1.5 and make Cruiser a weaker unit.
The first idea of this thread is to put Cruiser at 10 IPCs for 1.25 ratio and BB at 18 IPCs.

Lowering DD to 6, implied to put Cruiser at 9 and BB at 15 IPCs.
That way, you keep OOB relative strength DD + CA vs 1 BB = 50% odds of survival.

As suggested in Redesign Thread: a SS5, DD6, CA9, CV12, BB15 also make easier all calculations purchase because changing 1 step above or below is 1 Infantry at 3 IPCs and Subs get the iconic 5 spot.

But, how far is too low because placing ships in water is what delay Allies and air cheaper or more cost efficient vs warships is the main way to repel fleet?

Classic TP D1 C8 vs Fg A3 D4 C10 was still efficient ratio but costly for Allies.

Placing  both Cruiser and Fg at 10 is already helping UK fending off Lufftwaffe.

Going with advanced shipyard Tech can be tried too.
SS5, TP6, DD7, CA9, CV13, BB17
Carrier should still cost 14 to help BB compete with Cruiser it should be 16.

[Genghis Khan]

Do I need 10000 simulations to know that the average dice roll result on a single dice is 3.5? I only care about the most likely result, not the outliers.

[Genghis Khan]

But I guess failing that, I could always try using the VANN formulas ;)

[Young Grasshopper]

@Genghis:

But I guess failing that, I could always try using the VANN formulas ;)

lol.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Genghis:

Do I need 10000 simulations to know that the average dice roll result on a single dice is 3.5? I only care about the most likely result, not the outliers.

@Genghis:

Sea Unit Proposal Rev 2:

Subs: unchanged

Destroyers: can only cancel ability of subs on a 1:1 basis. If 1 DD and 5 planes attack 10 subs, only one sub can be hit.

Cruisers: Now cost 10. In addition, they have the Target Selection (Air) rule which means when a hit is scored by a cruiser, an air unit must be taken as a casualty if any is present.

Battleships: Now attack, defend and bombard on 5s

Aircraft Carriers: Now cost 18.

Please discuss

The values of accuracy required is up to you.

My suggestion is that there is no need to rise the cost of something which is not broken.
Battleship A4 D4 C18 vs defending CV+2 Fgs C36 is 50% vs 50%.
And BB A5 D5 C20 vs BB A4 D4 C18 are near 50% too.

So, why modifying 2 units instead of only one?
Just lowering BB to 18 IPCs or rising BB combat value to A5 D5?

If your calculations give something else, then it is the small scale of your simulation which bring an aberration into your results.

[Genghis Khan]

Ok if that’s true then I can leave the CV alone and just make the BB C18, cruiser C10 and target selection and DD’s only work with subs 1:1.

[baron Münchhausen]

Target selection on Aircrafts will make Cruiser an interesting unit to destroy Fgs prior to weaker unit or hit soaker BB or Carrier.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

While discussing on Global development, Larry said:

Oh… by the way… I’m ready to reduce the cost of cruisers to 11 IPCs. I also like the idea of adding an AA-gun like power to them. I suspect that would end up not cutting the mustard, however. Just too many steps and additional rules involved.
LH-e

http://www.harrisgamedesign.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4060&hilit=cruiser+11+IPC+cruiser+11IPCs&start=80

After all, maybe a Cruiser can be balance this way while adding some historical features (M3, AA):
CL A3D3M3C11, 1 AA@1 on def. vs 1 plane

Because, of course at 10 IPCs with 2 others additions, cruiser will be overboosted.

I just realized that Tank A3 D3 were 5 IPCs at that time, so doubling the cost would have put Cruiser A3 D3 at 10 IPCs.
And what is strange is that Larry back off because he felt that it would make 2 hits, 20 IPCs Battleship obsolete.
I understand that 11 IPCs is a too odd number, but 10 was not.
However, all the A&A combat structure is based on this fact that cheaper ground units are always better cost effective than costlier. Subs, DDs, Cruiser were following the rule, why bend it for Battleship?

It would have follow the rule, in addition, the 2 hits repairable units is something still valuable.