Submarines only fleet (wolf pack attack) vs warships

[baron Münchhausen]

Some people have introduce the historical idea that BB unit can no more attack subs but can still defend @4.

Cmdr Jen introduced, in an earlier tread, that subs that are attacking all by themselves get some advantage to pick up their casuality amongst surface vessels, if any.

I found this post :
@Fishmoto37:

@lnmajor:

@Fishmoto37:

We are using this in our current game. Works great! We are using Tigerman’s map along with other house rules. One of the main improvements we are working on is improving the submarine rules. The OOB rules for subs in the 1940G game are weak!

What are you doing with subs?

The sub rule we are trying now is 2-1-2 unit as in 1940G OOB but each DD that is declared a sub hunter rolls a die and sinks the sub on a one and locates on a two.
Located or detected subs can then be attacked by CAs or additional DDs.
If sub survives first round of combat then it defends at one or submerges.

For my part, I’m wondering if a Submarines only fleet (no other ship, no plane) can use somekind of wolf pack attack bonus:
Sub A2D1M2 when paired with another sub in a subs fleet only, 1 sub get attack +1.

It is not a supersubmarine since their is 2 conditions:
At least 2 subs, and only subs together in combat.

Examples:
3 submarines are attacking, 1 sub get A3, the 2 others get A2.

If their was 4 subs then 2 subs get A3 and the 2 others stay at A2.

This house rule didn’t affect subs on defense.

Any other ideas?

[baron Münchhausen]

@Cmdr:

Why are we limiting BBs from defending against submarines?

Maybe limit battleships so that they cannot ATTACK submarines, but can still DEFEND against an attack by them?  I just don’t see a battleship being sunk by a lone wolf submarine like transports can.  They’d do something, you know?

Or if they cannot defend, perhaps (similar to the rules for Submarines when attacked by units they couldn’t defend against in classic) let the attacker get one shot in, then the defender may retreat one sea zone if there exists a sea zone in which they can retreat without initiating combat or violating canal rules?  (Remember, in classic if you attacked a submarine with a fighter, if the fighter missed, the submarine could retreat a space, since it was not allowed to return fire, and submerging was not yet a rule.)

@Flashman:

Only one sub was ever sunk by a BB:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SM_U-29_(Germany)

In 1914 terms, this would give cruisers a definitive role in screening BBs from subs.

Yes, it would mean a lot more subs in the game but that is historical - naval commanders were in a state of panic of what to do about submarine; they seemed to make BBs obsolete.

One suggestion I’ve made is that you simply cannot have Battleships in a fleet without escorts (i.e. cruisers or destroyers if they’re available), much like you cannot have tanks without infantry.
So BBs can take a hit for the team, but they cannot be left as the last unit. Hence, you always have a chance against subs.

One question raised by the idea is:

If BBs cannot hit subs, then can they hit transports even if there are still enemy subs around? I say - yes!

BBs can’t hit subs certainly seems to create a more natural balance between the naval units in 1914; cruisers have a proper role, subs are now the deadly weapon they were instead of cheap cannon fodder, and BBs are not the overpowered monsters they so far seem to be.

I can’t speak for WWII versions; air power is the decisive element here that makes it a different ball game.

@Cmdr:

I would be willing to let submarines target transports on their first round opening fire, if there are nothing but submarines attacking.

Idea would be along the lines of:

"If you attack an enemy fleet with nothing but submarines, you have the option of a Sneak Attack.  For each attacking submarine you must declare which SURFACE ship (transport, destroyer, cruiser, battleship, aircraft carrier, + any new surface ships we may create in the process.)

Fire groups of submarines on a per target basis at once, but do not fire submarines that are targeting different ships at the same time.  If there are remaining destroyers present in the defending fleet, the defending fleet may return fire.  After the first round of combat all attacking submarines MUST retreat if there are ANY surviving enemies (surface ships, transports or submarines) remaining in the sea zone attacked."

So yes, they can call their shots, but they cannot combine that ability if engaging the enemy with surface ships or aircraft.  The idea is submarines can sneak up and fire before the enemy can get ready, but your aircraft screens (“Strawberry Flight” for example) will see surface ships on the water before they can get in range to attack and will warn the fleet so they can get from movement by column to attack formation, which would effectively screen battleships from submarines - for example.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Baron:

@Cmdr:

Look up the battle of Midway.

Basically, reconnaissance planes would be unable to warn of submarines in the area, so the submarines would get a first strike and choose their targets, especially if they chose to fire at night.  It’s only if the battle is all submarines vs defender, no aircraft, no surface ships, not even a transport.  If your defending fleet has a destroyer, you’d slaughter the submarines probably.

It’s an incentive to have destroyers in your fleet to protect battleships.  Otherwise, the enemy is going to send in 12 submarines, take out all your capitol ships and retreat before you can return fire.  Also encourages you to have destroyers on your ships sailing in to reinforce for the same reason.

The mecanics of this Sub HR seems good but it will make them overpower.

**_The casuality choice should be reduce at least to the hit which rolled “1” for attacking subs only fleet.

When an attacking sub roll “1” then it can choose his casuality._**

@Baron:

I would add the same about OP subs:

@Baron:

I agree with the way you define each “critical hit” for each unit.
Why did you forget the regular sub on attack?
Is it because of A2 only?
At least, when no ASW are present, on roll of “1” give the choice between TT and combat vessels (defender’s choice).

This is a very simply and effective/historical way to bring more diversity to the game and reward dice rolls of ‘1’.  :evil:

But there is a little difference with Cmdr Jen HR, it is for a fleet of attacking subs only.
It would be the specific conditions, in which a roll of “1” let the attacker choose any surface vessel.

In other circumstances, as stated “1” when no ASW is present give the choice between TT or warships, nothing more.

[baron Münchhausen]

@Uncrustable:

Follow below on dice rolls of ‘1’ in combat

––Super submarines, on offense only can choose surface target hit (TRN, CV, CA, BB) cannot choose destroyers or other subs, transports are valid targets
––Destroyers on offense and defense can choose a submarine hit (SS)
––Cruisers on offense and defense can choose an aircraft hit (FG, TAC, STRT)
----Battleships on offense and defense can choose a surface target hit (TRN, DD, CV, CA, BB) transports are valid targets, may not choose submarines

NOTE: BBs cannot choose subs, Cruisers choose aircraft, subs and BBs can choose transports, DDs become even more sub hunter/killers
Also NOTE: the units we already see purchased alot of (INF/ART/MECH/DD/CV) receive little to no boost

Submarines on the other hand may become very powerfull on offense, which is why i seriously consider restricting it to super subs only, and on offense only

This is a very simply and effective/historical way to bring more diversity to the game and reward dice rolls of ‘1’

[baron Münchhausen]

About AntiSubWeapon and Mission,
I have a different idea than:

The sub rule we are trying now is 2-1-2 unit as in 1940G OOB but each DD that is declared a sub hunter rolls a die and sinks the sub on a one and locates on a two.
Located or detected subs can then be attacked by CAs or additional DDs.
If sub survives first round of combat then it defends at one or submerges.

When DD are on attack vs Subs, I will let the OOB DD A2 ASW as usual for getting a hit.
If any DD roll “1” or “2” it is a hit, or if roll a"3" then Planes can attack located subs.

If all DDs roll only “4” or higher, then no planes can attack subs, since no DD detected them, however they can still hit any other units in the sea-zone.

I find interesting to let the defending subs to submerge instead of taking defensive roll.
I would rather let this submerge possibility only if all DDs roll “4” or higher.

This will have the effect of drastically reduce the odds to find Subs by 50% instead of an automatic finding. And it gives an increasing importance on having much more than a single DD for ASW.

I will not forbid cruiser from attacking Subs since I already agree to forbid attacking BB vs subs.
It will let cruiser somekind of specific effectiveness vs subs that don’t have BB.

However, Cruiser would not block the subs from submerge, instead of defending.