Just a reminder
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Marxism
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you gotta’ love Churchill. If you’re not a liberal when you’re 20, you have not heart, if you’re not a conservative when you’re 40, you have no brains.
MP - you make my heart happy. What a nice idea - giving the African nations what they need. This is one of the reasons i went into medicine - to work with medicines sans frontieres, and help those without the benifit of Canadian medicine. Sadly tho’, our governments (and those of the past) have been lending money to corrupt governments, the food has been going to maintain armies, and the Western world is being laughed at (when not being burned in effigy).
I think you (and Paul Martin, and Bono) are right in terms of the fact that it makes no sense to demand payment on interest on a debt generated by the a**holes running the place. It would be nice to not pee our money down the African toilet - not when there is still so much need in N.A. (see native issues, etc.). -
hey look…commies on holiday!
not one of you ever take into account adapted human nature…your only argument is that “it isn’t inherent in birth and can be changed…”
it isn’t inherent but it is (what’s the word???) taken in through time and nature…our very survival is based on our ability to take…not give. thus, the birth of selfishness.
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“it isn’t inherent but it is (what’s the word???) taken in through time and nature…our very survival is based on our ability to take…not give. thus, the birth of selfishness.”
Again, you have to support communist in this case. You said time and nature. Would a child born and raised in a communist society be more likely to support communist, rather than capitalistic ideas (take more than you need) ideals than one born in a capitalistic society? Why is there a need for survival – too take from others, when there is already enough for everybody?
As for the Churchil quote, I believe it was 30 not 40.
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hey look…commies on holiday!
not one of you ever take into account adapted human nature…your only argument is that “it isn’t inherent in birth and can be changed…”
it isn’t inherent but it is (what’s the word???) taken in through time and nature…our very survival is based on our ability to take…not give. thus, the birth of selfishness.
Instinct
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not one of you ever take into account adapted human nature…your only argument is that “it isn’t inherent in birth and can be changed…”
it isn’t inherent but it is (what’s the word???) taken in through time and nature…our very survival is based on our ability to take…not give. thus, the birth of selfishness.
this is exaclty the kind of thing i did no want. i asked that you ask questions, not make ignorant statments ( i wont work so there). ask how, why and what. the fact that you have allready made up you mind and do not wish to adopt a new way of thinking makes your responce counter productive.
your entitled to your opinion so saying that greed is instinct is your opinion. we can’t change your mind about that. but thats all it is an opinion.
look if you want to ask me why capatilism does not work or why greed can be changed go ahead, but be prepared to except the answer i give. other wise it will just be a conflict of opinions ( " no it wont" “yes it will”).
and nothing will be acomplised or learned. -
the fact that you have allready made up you mind and do not wish to adopt a new way of thinking makes your responce counter productive.
.I’m not asking for your biography freek. You have made up your mind, and if you remember a thread a while back i already debated this with you and Moses…or maybe we just have some major short term memory.
since when did you say anything intelligent?
"Again, you have to support communist in this case. You said time and nature. "
Yes, I totally agree. When a kid pick pockets when no one told him to…what do you think of that? Desire and selfishness is the reason…not born with us but acquired very quickly…it is essential to our competitive survival. Now if everyone was a perfect Buhddist then we would be fine…but that won’t happen.
“Would a child born and raised in a communist society be more likely to support communist, rather than capitalistic ideas (take more than you need) ideals than one born in a capitalistic society?”
I have a good friend who grew up in Hungary and went here with her family. She hates communism, and she believes capitalism is a better system (though she is liberal, besides her stance on the death pelenty.) Now if we grew up in a perfect communist society (not USSR), then there would eb no problem…but a perfect communist society would be heaven on earth, and man could never allow that to happen. You know that.
“take more than you need”
A communist society that was perfect would be far more efficient than a present capitalistic one (but not a perfect one.) When it comes down to it you want a perfecyt society…communism isn’t the answer.
"Why is there a need for survival – too take from others, when there is already enough for everybody? "
Because some want more and have the ability to take it!
For example, you live in a communist society and everyone shares everything. The guy next to you in the communal dining room happens to like soup, so eats yours too…People take not because of NEED, but because of WANT. Capisce?
Too many of you pro-commies want a perfect society because our present one sucks…communism isn’t the answer, because it won’t advance the people who are being repressed…it would only hurt their ability to be rewarded for their live’s work.
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“Yes, I totally agree. When a kid pick pockets when no one told him to…what do you think of that? Desire and selfishness is the reason…not born with us but acquired very quickly…it is essential to our competitive survival.”
Why must there be competitive survival when there is naturally enough for everybody? Why is there Sooo much more crime in poverty-infested, inner city slums than in upscale, gated communities?
“I have a good friend who grew up in Hungary and went here with her family. She hates communism, and she believes capitalism is a better system (though she is liberal, besides her stance on the death pelenty.) Now if we grew up in a perfect communist society (not USSR), then there would eb no problem…but a perfect communist society would be heaven on earth, and man could never allow that to happen. You know that.”
You’re exactly right. If I was born in Hungary during the Soviet “Communist” occupation, I would probably grow up with a grudge toward communism too. However, in communism, there is freedom of speech. If you want to say “Communism Sucks,” you have the right too. However reverse the situation. Just because I grow up in a capitalist society and say “Communism Rules,” will not mean I will, by myself, undermine the system and lead to the total collapse of capitalism. Same with communism.
“A communist society that was perfect would be far more efficient than a present capitalistic one (but not a perfect one.) When it comes down to it you want a perfecyt society…communism isn’t the answer.”
A perfect society isn’t possible. Like I said, some people growing up in a communist society will go against the system. However, communism provides the next-best-thing compared with capitalism. Tell me, if communism isn’t the answer, than what in your opinion is?
”Because some want more and have the ability to take it!”
Ditto from the previous responses.
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"Why must there be competitive survival when there is naturally enough for everybody? Why is there Sooo much more crime in poverty-infested, inner city slums than in upscale, gated communities? "
Why? Because people are greedy and you cannot eliminate Greed in any society on Earth! And there are crimes in upscale neighborhoods…instead of robbing someone for 20, they cheat their taxes for way more…
"You’re exactly right. If I was born in Hungary during the Soviet “Communist” occupation, I would probably grow up with a grudge toward communism too. However, in communism, there is freedom of speech. If you want to say “Communism Sucks,” you have the right too. However reverse the situation. Just because I grow up in a capitalist society and say “Communism Rules,” will not mean I will, by myself, undermine the system and lead to the total collapse of capitalism. Same with communism. "
All true…the USSR was an oppressive state, not a true communist one, but you fail to answer the truly important question: “but a perfect communist society would be heaven on earth, and man could never allow that to happen. You know that”
Communism and capitalism is not the problem, human greed is. Just in my opinion communism would hurt society more than capitalism.
"A perfect society isn’t possible. Like I said, some people growing up in a communist society will go against the system. However, communism provides the next-best-thing compared with capitalism. Tell me, if communism isn’t the answer, than what in your opinion is? "
The answer? What does i equal? what is 2 divided by 0…there is no real feasible answer. We cannot eliminate greed when it is required for sheer survival (like robbing milk out of your mothers breasts, to raiding the fridge.) People take what they want, and if you have the ability to take, selfishness will follow. A capitslistic society would at least allow me to work for what I earn and give incentive. A communist society on this planet would not furfill the needs of the people, and only serve the motives of others. At least capitalism gives someone a chance to work and get something out of it…with communism, you will have nothing to show for it.
When everyone works for the state, they become lazy.
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One quick question Horten, how do you do quotes? You seem to have a problem with mine (lots of ’t )
“Communism and capitalism is not the problem, human greed is. Just in my opinion communism would hurt society more than capitalism.”
Tell me, what promotes the growth of human greed more, capitalism or communism?
"And there are crimes in upscale neighborhoods…instead of robbing someone for 20, they cheat their taxes for way more… "
True (though I’m not sure on the exact number and how many are due to human errors because of the VAST amount of money involved). But are these rates higher than poverty stricken areas? I don’t think so. And even then, this is an arguement against capitalism. Only those looking out for themselves and scewing the system for “what’s theirs” will succeed in life.
“but a perfect communist society would be heaven on earth, and man could never allow that to happen. You know that”
To a poor worker trying to edge out a livin on minimum wage, I would think communism would seem like heaven on earth to him.
“The answer? What does i equal? what is 2 divided by 0…there is no real feasible answer. We cannot eliminate greed when it is required for sheer survival (like robbing milk out of your mothers breasts, to raiding the fridge.) People take what they want, and if you have the ability to take, selfishness will follow…”
I merely asked you if there was a system better than communism. In our present capitalistic system, there is still poverty. In fact, most of the world lives in poverty, trying to survive on less than 1000
calories a day. I wanted to know how you would go about solving this. How about a American capitalistic system in every government? Would that solve the world’s problems? It would seem like your answer was, “Well…well… it’s greed! Hahaha, you suckers will never solve it! :P” Like mini said, you have to have an open mind on this subject.“When everyone works for the state, they become lazy.”
It depends on what you mean by lazy. We certainly have the machines and technology to greatly speed up and cut the amount of work. Why not use these machines to shorten needed work hours and thereby allow people to persue intellectual, physical, and secular activities? Of course, seeing someone under a tree dozing off when he simply doesn’t need to work would be considered “lazy” by the capitalist consumed with producing goods for the mass market.
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“One quick question Horten, how do you do quotes? You seem to have a problem with mine (lots of ’t )”
It works with other people…you’re unlucky!
"“Communism and capitalism is not the problem, human greed is. Just in my opinion communism would hurt society more than capitalism.”
Tell me, what promotes the growth of human greed more, capitalism or communism? "
Both equally…Communism would hurt the situation more buy getting rid of the will to work and hurting society as a whole in the long run. That and plenty of other stuff…(concerning economic mobility, corruption of those who start up such a society…)
""And there are crimes in upscale neighborhoods…instead of robbing someone for 20, they cheat their taxes for way more… "
True (though I’m not sure on the exact number and how many are due to human errors because of the VAST amount of money involved). But are these rates higher than poverty stricken areas? I don’t think so. And even then, this is an arguement against capitalism. Only those looking out for themselves and scewing the system for “what’s theirs” will succeed in life."
Its true, but greed in all societies make people look out for themselves. I was just saying that everyone commits crime, regardless of place in society…some people do it less violently and it is socially acceptable.
"“but a perfect communist society would be heaven on earth, and man could never allow that to happen. You know that”
To a poor worker trying to edge out a livin on minimum wage, I would think communism would seem like heaven on earth to him. "
Minimum wage? I know people my age who make a couple of bucks more than that. Even illegal immigrants who work less than that (and live a floor above me!) work their asses hard and long enough until they make more than “minimum wage.” I know too many people who work as technicians work are taught under my father who are from foreign nations, and make a lot of money (and being an automotive technician is a huge investment, thousands upon thousands in tools, labscopes, computers, and certification.) You know what hell on Earth is? PEople who don’t work because they will be fed if they don’t anyway. People losing the will to work. A whole society that doesn’t strive. Then everyone starves.
"“The answer? What does i equal? what is 2 divided by 0…there is no real feasible answer. We cannot eliminate greed when it is required for sheer survival (like robbing milk out of your mothers breasts, to raiding the fridge.) People take what they want, and if you have the ability to take, selfishness will follow…”
I merely asked you if there was a system better than communism. In our present capitalistic system, there is still poverty. In fact, most of the world lives in poverty, trying to survive on less than 1000
calories a day. I wanted to know how you would go about solving this. How about a American capitalistic system in every government? Would that solve the world’s problems? It would seem like your answer was, “Well…well… it’s greed! Hahaha, you suckers will never solve it! " Like mini said, you have to have an open mind on this subject.”A system is better than earth communism…earth capitalism. Why is it that independent communes collapse after the first generation? In most cases, newer generations aren’t as idealistic. Communism cannot work longterm (because the development of greed.)
I have an open mind, it is you commies who don’t. You ignore the facts that humans are greedy, that greed cannot be eliminated and what not. An american capitalistic system cannot work in every country because America is stronger and can take advantage (and does) of others, and people in those antions take advantage of their own. Now a whole world of communism? Imagaine everyone slacking off! You would have 0 calories per day.
IMO, you and mini fail to keep that open mind. Communes and nations tried to have communism. In some cases corrupt individuals behind ti, advancing their own needs made things worse, and in other cases the fact that future generations did not idealistically comply are all reasons why communism doesn’t work.
Now I repeated myself a million times, but i’ll say it again. If everyone was a perfect individual, then communism and capitalism would work perfectly…but this is just not true. People need a reason to work and compete.
Now just to debate against the praticality of a world wide communistic system, how would you go about creating it? Would you make America communist first? America doing it alone would never work out, because its economy would suffer, and people would be like “I owned a lot more stuff when we weren’t commies…” And the people in power…who will they serve? The good of us? Ha! At least in a capitalists society you can work harder than others, do better than others.
"“When everyone works for the state, they become lazy.”
It depends on what you mean by lazy. We certainly have the machines and technology to greatly speed up and cut the amount of work. Why not use these machines to shorten needed work hours and thereby allow people to persue intellectual, physical, and secular activities? Of course, seeing someone under a tree dozing off when he simply doesn’t need to work would be considered “lazy” by the capitalist consumed with producing goods for the mass market."
That would be nice…but come on! People would only want to work 6 hours a day, 4 days a week, have a month off for christmas, and 3 for summer. How long can a society last like that?
It would be nice to make comptuers smart enough to do our work. but who would fix them, smarter computers? Just because they aren’t made of flesh, what gives us the right to enslave a race of machines that are smart enough to do human work?
I bet when man invented the sewing machine and steam engine he said, “Boy, work can be cut drastically!”
I bet when Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin he said, “Boy, there will be no need for slaves because this can do the work of many men!”
Didn’t you notice that our quality of life is a lot better than 50 years ago? Machines do our math, machines wash our clothes, machines move us place to place…are we happier? Don’t we still work? We might have more things and more machines doing aspects of human work, but there is a man behind every machine, from the wind mill to the gasoline engine. Sure we might not have to move ourselves, but we have to drive the car.
So no, increases in technology will not eliminate all human work.
Now sitting under a tree being an intellectual…sounds good.
BTW, if a machine can be emotional, would you feel right enslaving it?
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Now for the second time posting! My computer crashed on me! :evil: Grr…. Must be the work of some damned Capitalist sympathizers! :roll:
“Both equally…Communism would hurt the situation more buy getting rid of the will to work and hurting society as a whole in the long run. That and plenty of other stuff…(concerning economic mobility, corruption of those who start up such a society…)
First corruption plays a large part in starting a society. Imagine where America would be today if George Washington turned out to be a dictator (and he could’ve been)? The worst and easiest way to ruin any society is through corrupt and incompetent rulers when the new society is still in its infancy. Economic mobility? What need is there when you naturally start out at the top? I disagree communism gets rid of the will to work. Did Edgar Allen Poe stop producing literature when he was poor (some say his best works came when he hit rock bottom)? Did Pablo Picasso magically stop painting when his early paintings didn’t sell? Did William Shakespeare suddenly stop writing plays because he had frequent finical troubles?
”…Its true, but greed in all societies make people look out for themselves.”
Again, why must we look out for ourselves when everybody is provided for?
”Minimum wage? I know people my age who make a couple of bucks more than that. Even illegal immigrants who work less than that (and live a floor above me!) work their asses hard and long enough until they make more than “minimum wage.” I know too many people who work as technicians work are taught under my father who are from foreign nations, and make a lot of money (and being an automotive technician is a huge investment, thousands upon thousands in tools, labscopes, computers, and certification.) You know what hell on Earth is? PEople who don’t work because they will be fed if they don’t anyway. People losing the will to work. A whole society that doesn’t strive. Then everyone starves.”
First, I like to ask what work those illegal immigrants do. Second, why must they work their asses hard and long even to make a few bucks more than minimum wage? Should life revolve upon a constant influx of work (chances are those workers produce commodities not necessities)? Chances are they are been paid for their ability to work, not the work they do. People will still work even if they aren’t paid for their job.
Let’s take a look at cooperative working to describe the work methods that created a free operating system known as Linux. People from all over the world worked to create a powerful commercial quality product. People worked for nothing and the product is distributed free. Was money exchanged ? Well, one of the people involved most heavily was using very outdated equipment and a fund was set up so he could buy a less antiquated PC. So there you have it: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. A successful implementation in miniature of the communist method of production. What made this possible ? A very powerful factor here was the internet itself. People coordinated the project by advertising their abilities and needs to one another on the net and spontaneously forming small temporary “production units”.
“A system is better than earth communism…earth capitalism. Why is it that independent communes collapse after the first generation? In most cases, newer generations aren’t as idealistic. Communism cannot work longterm (because the development of greed.)”
Actually communism is a very long-term goal and system if implemented correctly. Just as the world has evolved from feudalism to capitalism, so it will evolve from capitalism, first through socialism (in which the working class is dominant), then eventually to communism (in which there are no classes). My job is to hasten that evolution. Also you are assuming that communes will collapse after the first generation. Not so. North American Indian, the Maories, Australian aborigines, and other tribes have existed many generations using a crude form of communism.
“I have an open mind, it is you commies who don’t. You ignore the facts that humans are greedy, that greed cannot be eliminated and what not. An american capitalistic system cannot work in every country because America is stronger and can take advantage (and does) of others, and people in those antions take advantage of their own. Now a whole world of communism? Imagaine everyone slacking off! You would have 0 calories per day.”
You are realizing the own folly of capitalism. Capitalistic countries like USA try to get out of the crisis of overproduction by selling goods on foreign markets. However, all the other capitalists are trying to do the same and the world is only so big. Also in the very act of exporting to foreign markets the capitalists develop the productive forces in these countries (eg. Indonesia, China). How much more can the world withstand before it becomes over saturated? This is a reason why most of the world must survive on less than 1000 calories per day, foreign countries being taken advantaged by countries such as the USA and having to exploit their own population in order to survive. However in the communist society you are assuming everybody slacking off. People can learn to be motivated by working for the common good. If we help each other, we both gain. Capitalism encourages us to fight against each other for crumbs, while the very few stuff themselves on the pie.
”IMO, you and mini fail to keep that open mind. Communes and nations tried to have communism. In some cases corrupt individuals behind ti, advancing their own needs made things worse, and in other cases the fact that future generations did not idealistically comply are all reasons why communism doesn’t work.”
Be careful not to mix communism with socialism. China, USSR, Vietnam, North Korea, Laos and Cuba were all socialist states. So far no communist nation has existed.
”Now just to debate against the praticality of a world wide communistic system, how would you go about creating it? Would you make America communist first? America doing it alone would never work out, because its economy would suffer, and people would be like “I owned a lot more stuff when we weren’t commies…” And the people in power…who will they serve? The good of us? Ha! At least in a capitalists society you can work harder than others, do better than others.”
Now this deserves a lot of explaining (many, many pages) before you can have an in depth look at a communist system. However, if you’re looking for the answer, ask Mini (he is better at theorizing than I am). I would give you the Marxist resolution, but for a better understanding, read the Manifesto Itself.
“It would be nice to make comptuers smart enough to do our work. but who would fix them, smarter computers? Just because they aren’t made of flesh, what gives us the right to enslave a race of machines that are smart enough to do human work?”
If by human work, you mean busy work, we have been doing that for generations and with animals made of flesh. Suddenly, we must ban the enslavement of animals for plowing simply because they do human work? Likewise, we are already enslaving computers. I leave my computer on for most of the day and use it to type documents, surf the web, listen to music, and other task. What would you like, off time and paid vacations for my computer to compensate for this unjust enslavement? Computers aren’t smart, they can’t think on their own. What they do, however, is reduce the amount of work through automated task. Granted we need technicians and there are those willing to fill the gap because they enjoy this job. Are saying that all computer technicians are only in it for the money?
“I bet when man invented the sewing machine and steam engine he said, “Boy, work can be cut drastically!”
I bet when Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin he said, "Boy, there will be no need for slaves because this can do the work of many men
Didn’t you notice that our quality of life is a lot better than 50 years ago? Machines do our math, machines wash our clothes, machines move us place to place…are we happier? Don’t we still work? We might have more things and more machines doing aspects of human work, but there is a man behind every machine, from the wind mill to the gasoline engine. Sure we might not have to move ourselves, but we have to drive the car.”Another problem with capitalism – increased expectations. After spending some of the surplus value from exported good, capitalist are forced to re-invest the surplus back into production (ie more factories and machines). If capitalist does not invest, then he will be out-competed by other more efficient capitalists who do. If a machine cuts work by 20%, chances are he will cut the number of workers (creating unemployment) or (and probably the higher chance when things are “going good”) he will capitalize on his investment by producing more goods (now 120% from original production standards) and in turn export them to more markets so he makes enough to buy even MORE machines. Eventually this leads to overproduction, a major problem with capitalism. Guess who losses their job when the resulting slump in productivity comes? The man or the machine?
But by mentioning sewing machine, steam engine, and cotton gin, those are mainly used in commercial and industrial industries. How about the dishwasher? The Refrigerator? The laundry machine and dryer? I would hope that would reduce the amount of work compared with more “primitive,” conventional methods.
”So no, increases in technology will not eliminate all human work. “
No, but it will help to reduce it.
”BTW, if a machine can be emotional, would you feel right enslaving it?”
Newsflash! Suddenly Communist controlled machines become emotional! Read all about it!
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BTW, if a machine can be emotional, would you feel right enslaving it?
Interesting question… ethic for machine… Anyway, even if Penrose has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent computer, i am always sceptical… we use far too often the work “impossible”.
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"I disagree communism gets rid of the will to work. Did Edgar Allen Poe stop producing literature when he was poor (some say his best works came when he hit rock bottom)? Did Pablo Picasso magically stop painting when his early paintings didn’t sell? Did William Shakespeare suddenly stop writing plays because he had frequent finical troubles? "
Yes, but don’t teachers not work very hard in many instances because they have a guarenteed paycheck from the state? Yes. Do public servants work very hard? They are among the laziest! I worked in a town library and saw how lazy they are. Since they are provided a guarenteed paycheck and amount, they don’t work very hard. Beaurcracies are already so inefficients, how could you trust one to provide everything for us?
“Again, why must we look out for ourselves when everybody is provided for?”
Because people want mroe than the essentials. People want more than others. You can’t make people fully provided for…like a spoiled child, the more a person has the more they want. That desire keeps greed and selfishness out there. People will always look out for themselves, becuase people care more about themself.
"First, I like to ask what work those illegal immigrants do. Second, why must they work their asses hard and long even to make a few bucks more than minimum wage? Should life revolve upon a constant influx of work (chances are those workers produce commodities not necessities)? Chances are they are been paid for their ability to work, not the work they do. People will still work even if they aren’t paid for their job. "
Mowing lawns, pumping gas, doing building at the town park…They work their asses off because they get rewarded after years of hard work, like the Turkish immigrants who worked for my dad, or the israeli immigrants who my dad knows, or the arab immigrants that he teaches today!
Now you start going off in a different tangent…and the answer is people will work less hard if they get paid equal to everyone else or if their is no chance to. Look at state jobs, it is that simple.
“Let’s take a look at cooperative working to describe the work methods that created a free operating system known as Linux. People from all over the world worked to create a powerful commercial quality product. People worked for nothing and the product is distributed free. Was money exchanged ? Well, one of the people involved most heavily was using very outdated equipment and a fund was set up so he could buy a less antiquated PC. So there you have it: from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. A successful implementation in miniature of the communist method of production. What made this possible ? A very powerful factor here was the internet itself. People coordinated the project by advertising their abilities and needs to one another on the net and spontaneously forming small temporary “production units”.”
The world isn’t linux. I could say “well a communes work, so communism must work.” that is a small example and red hat and other companies make money off linux. What is next, a group project in 5th grade is communism too?
“Actually communism is a very long-term goal and system if implemented correctly.”
I debate that is it next to impossible to do so…just as impossible than a perfect capitalist society.
"Just as the world has evolved from feudalism to capitalism, so it will evolve from capitalism, first through socialism (in which the working class is dominant), then eventually to communism (in which there are no classes). "
I’m afraid that it will because people are misguided…i need to live another 50 years to rate the success of modern social democracies to say for sure if “capitalism or communism will win…” I’m guessing capitalism.
"My job is to hasten that evolution. Also you are assuming that communes will collapse after the first generation. Not so. North American Indian, the Maories, Australian aborigines, and other tribes have existed many generations using a crude form of communism. "
Crude form of communism? Not exactly communism is it? If my dad share s tools in the shop, is that communism? No. Its sharing. I have read the book “We” and it says the same thing. that communism is part of evolution. Indeed it is, but man is not the being for it.
“You are realizing the own folly of capitalism. Capitalistic countries like USA try to get out of the crisis of overproduction by selling goods on foreign markets.”
Yet we have a trade deficit…makes you think eh?
“However, all the other capitalists are trying to do the same and the world is only so big. Also in the very act of exporting to foreign markets the capitalists develop the productive forces in these countries (eg. Indonesia, China).”
Communism failed in North Korea, China, Vietnam, and Cuba. Though they make considerbly less money than America, they make more with capitalism. Haven’t you noticed that they are only “communist” in name?
"How much more can the world withstand before it becomes over saturated? "
There are always new products and people keep eating. Demand never dissappears.
“This is a reason why most of the world must survive on less than 1000 calories per day, foreign countries being taken advantaged by countries such as the USA and having to exploit their own population in order to survive.”
This indeed happens, but in a world where only parts of it are communist, they fail. How realistically will the whole world become communist…and when it magically does, how long can it endure that way? Not very long at all.
"However in the communist society you are assuming everybody slacking off. "
You bet your ass :)
“People can learn to be motivated by working for the common good.”
No…people want some sort of promise of betterment. Most people won’t.
“If we help each other, we both gain. Capitalism encourages us to fight against each other for crumbs, while the very few stuff themselves on the pie.”
Yes and Earth Communism says “everyone share the crumbs, because we couldn’t make enough pie!” What if ?I am a communist farmer, and i keep some more of my crop and don’t share it? That can very easily happen…until you eliminate that greed, communism can only damn us.
"Be careful not to mix communism with socialism. China, USSR, Vietnam, North Korea, Laos and Cuba were all socialist states. So far no communist nation has existed. "
Very true, though “communist” repubic is always fit in there in name. But doesn’t that show you how unrealistic a true communistic society is? The best means of comparing are farm communes and of the sort…wow, they lasted real long…
“Now this deserves a lot of explaining (many, many pages) before you can have an in depth look at a communist system. However, if you’re looking for the answer, ask Mini (he is better at theorizing than I am). I would give you the Marxist resolution, but for a better understanding, read the Manifesto Itself.”
That answers a whole lot ;) I don’t think Marx came up with an idea of sectional communsit societies. I believe he wanted a world wide revolution (in industrial nations at the least.) If half of the worlds industrialized societies became communist, i bet the capitalist ones would over power them. So it would have to be world wde, and again, how would that last???
“If by human work, you mean busy work, we have been doing that for generations and with animals made of flesh.”
And was it right?
“Suddenly, we must ban the enslavement of animals for plowing simply because they do human work?”
They are not very smart…a computer that can take place of ALL human work would be. As long as computers exist not smart enough to do EVERYTHING, man must do work…and that would be a hell of a lot of computers to fix.
"Likewise, we are already enslaving computers. I leave my computer on for most of the day and use it to type documents, surf the web, listen to music, and other task. "
Your computer is not as advanced as the computer in your skull.
“What would you like, off time and paid vacations for my computer to compensate for this unjust enslavement?”
Maybe French computers…
“Computers aren’t smart, they can’t think on their own.”
For now. A computer that can fully replace a man would be. We already invented computers that run of protein strands…it is just a matter of time until we can emulate a brain.
“What they do, however, is reduce the amount of work through automated task. Granted we need technicians and there are those willing to fill the gap because they enjoy this job. Are saying that all computer technicians are only in it for the money?”
That and their love of their work…that’s why i would want to be a history teacher.
“Another problem with capitalism – increased expectations. After spending some of the surplus value from exported good, capitalist are forced to re-invest the surplus back into production (ie more factories and machines). If capitalist does not invest, then he will be out-competed by other more efficient capitalists who do. If a machine cuts work by 20%, chances are he will cut the number of workers (creating unemployment) or (and probably the higher chance when things are “going good”) he will capitalize on his investment by producing more goods (now 120% from original production standards) and in turn export them to more markets so he makes enough to buy even MORE machines. Eventually this leads to overproduction, a major problem with capitalism. Guess who losses their job when the resulting slump in productivity comes? The man or the machine?”
By that theory factories will be producing machines, selling them to more machines. The human market will continue to exist.
“But by mentioning sewing machine, steam engine, and cotton gin, those are mainly used in commercial and industrial industries. How about the dishwasher? The Refrigerator? The laundry machine and dryer? I would hope that would reduce the amount of work compared with more “primitive,” conventional methods.”
They do, yet we find ourselves having “busy”: days, correct? Yet a lot of people commit suicide because they are unhappy. Why couldn’t we be happier with t he simpler things in life?
"No, but it will help to reduce it. "
People still work 14 hours a day…what computer reduces their work? Now we can do a lot more work in our time, but in return, there is more work to be done…unless everybody decided “you know what? Who needs advances in technology and such, I am happy the way I am.” Thats isn’t going to happen.
"Newsflash! Suddenly Communist controlled machines become emotional! Read all about it! "
Well capitalist could control them too, but at that point they would probably become customers.
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BTW, if a machine can be emotional, would you feel right enslaving it?
Interesting question… ethic for machine… Anyway, even if Penrose has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent computer, i am always sceptical… we use far too often the work “impossible”.
,
can a man make something better than himself?
I say yes.
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“Yes, but don’t teachers not work very hard in many instances because they have a guarenteed paycheck from the state?”
And yet there are people working very hard for their pay. It’s true that some teachers won’t work as hard. And other times I’ve seen teachers passionate about their subject (we all know they’re not in it for the money, right?). But is this due to having a guaranteed paycheck or lack of work ethic? Of course the opinion is very subjective. I’ve seen a history teacher at my school win a “Teacher of the Year Award” when all he did was show movies in class! Communism teaches a strong work ethic from an early start.
“Because people want mroe than the essentials. People want more than others. You can’t make people fully provided for…like a spoiled child, the more a person has the more they want. That desire keeps greed and selfishness out there. People will always look out for themselves, becuase people care more about themself.”
You are assuming everybody will want more. There are people in life who are content with what they are. As for their “greed” and “selfishness,” it’s interesting to see how in some Native American cultures an extremely greedy and self-centered act would be to give all of his belongings away. In capitalist countries, little children quickly learn to share and cooperate, but they are later taught to take more than they need compete viciously in “the real world.”
“The world isn’t linux. I could say “well a communes work, so communism must work.” that is a small example and red hat and other companies make money off linux. What is next, a group project in 5th grade is communism too?”
I provide this an example of communist practices within a capitalist society. Imagine this sort of cooperative sharing that is favorable under a communist society. The chief question remains, are the programmers paid for the code in Linux? Would they be inclined to work even more when there aren’t bills to be paid for? And if 5th graders from all over the world got together and worked to create a powerful commercial quality product (working for nothing and distributed the product as free), yes, I would call it a very communistic approach.
“I debate that is it next to impossible to do so…just as impossible than a perfect capitalist society.”
“In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.” - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut. Therefore, I can never answer your question completely and surely. Likewise, you can’t say that a communist society won’t work. Never has a nation been truly communist, so until that happens, we won’t know for sure. However, what I can use is evidence and logic as a supporting factor in this argument. Perhaps another 50 years should do the trick?
“Crude form of communism? Not exactly communism is it? If my dad share s tools in the shop, is that communism? No. Its sharing. I have read the book “We” and it says the same thing. that communism is part of evolution. Indeed it is, but man is not the being for it.”
By crude form of communism, I mean these tribes were unjust form as far as the women are concerned, performed a large amount of drudgery, ect. Does you Dad own the shop? Does he own the tools? Chances are it’s not communism, though maybe a very, very crude form of it.
“I have read the book “We” and it says the same thing. that communism is part of evolution. Indeed it is, but man is not the being for it.”
Again, how can you know for sure? Do you think peasants thought they would escape the chains of feudalism? Equal treatment of man and women? The Divinity of Kings? When man first walked the earth, would he not some day be walking on the face of the moon, the bottom of the sea, or the highest mountain merely because “he was not the being for it.”
”Yet we have a trade deficit…makes you think eh?”
A lot of this can be contributed to America’s dependence on foreign oil (perhaps another topic?). A lot of it comes from manufacturing countries that were once foreign markets (ie Made in China).
“Communism failed in North Korea, China, Vietnam, and Cuba. Though they make considerbly less money than America, they make more with capitalism. Haven’t you noticed that they are only “communist” in name?”
Are you asking me, did I even think these countries were truly communist (more socialistic) in the first place? Of course not. Most of these countries had shady or corrupt leaders during their revolution. Like I said many times, a true communist society has never existed as far these countries are concerned. However, the system of democracy Cuba uses does impress me.
”There are always new products and people keep eating. Demand never dissappears.”
You are confusing necessities with commodities. There still exists a huge demand for houses for the homeless, or food for the hungry, or medicine for the sick - but for a capitalist, demand only means anything if it is backed up with hard cash. Capitalism gets itself in this mess because it produces for profit and not for need. Doesn’t everybody want to eat? I would think so. However, little more than 3% of the world can be used for farmable surface topsoil (the rest of the world being overpopulated, in the ocean, or where the soil is too poor to farm). Much of this land lies in the United States. Did you know if America really wanted to feed the world, it could? The American breadbasket by far has enough fertile soil and the means to produce foodstuffs for the entire planet. So why don’t we? Easy, capitalism. You see by over producing, American gain prices would and profits would be cut.
“No…people want some sort of promise of betterment. Most people won’t.”
Promise of betterment? Bonus! Looks like almost everybody would be benefited under a communist society. Ahead of whom? Under capitalism, people get ahead of other people. Many poor and working class people in this country consider putting food on the table being ahead of the game. Under socialism, and eventually communism, all people get ahead together with basic necessities and luxuries.
“But doesn’t that show you how unrealistic a true communistic society is? The best means of comparing are farm communes and of the sort…wow, they lasted real long…”
Lets take a look at democracy. You say these communist countries failed once (and it wasn’t even communism), and it fell because of humankind’s greedy nature. When the Democracy of Athens and the Roman Republic failed, people said they failed because of humankind’s stupid nature. Here we have another lesson to learn: Just because an idea failed once does not mean it always will. Also, maybe this time we will not wait 1,820 years to realize this. And many such tribes lasted for many generations, that was until the white man came…
“If half of the worlds industrialized societies became communist, i bet the capitalist ones would over power them. So it would have to be world wde, and again, how would that last???”
Hmmm… is it because capitalist societies have to overpower other countries and take these foreign markets by force? You are telling me the defining sign that capitalism had exhausted its potential to develop human society. Rest, assured communism will last, a very, very long time. :wink:
“And was it right?”
I don’t know, was it? The animal was provided for, cared for, fed, provided shelter, and often loved in exchange for work.
“They are not very smart…a computer that can take place of ALL human work would be. As long as computers exist not smart enough to do EVERYTHING, man must do work…and that would be a hell of a lot of computers to fix.”
How often does your computer break down and you have to take it to a computer repair store to fix it? So far, I haven’t with this compute I used (and it’s lasted me many, many years). Granted, there would still be a lot of computers to fix,but we would have the trained workers to do it. Also, I didn’t say computers would take the place of ALL human work. However, what they can do is speed that process along.
“Your computer is not as advanced as the computer in your skull.”
Tell me, what will happen to computers in a capitalistic society when they will be as “advanced” as the brain in my skull? Will they not be enslaved and exploited for profit in a capitalistic society?
“Maybe French computers…”
Haha. :lol:
“For now. A computer that can fully replace a man would be. We already invented computers that run of protein strands…it is just a matter of time until we can emulate a brain”
God hopes this will never happen. 8)
“i would want to be a history teacher.”
Are you in it simply because of the money? History teachers aren’t the highest paid people in the world.
“By that theory factories will be producing machines, selling them to more machines. The human market will continue to exist.”
Are you saying that factories will actually PRODUCE machines in order to SELL to them to other MACHINES? Wow, suddenly the machines are the ones being the potential consumer. :P
“They do, yet we find ourselves having “busy”: days, correct? Yet a lot of people commit suicide because they are unhappy. Why couldn’t we be happier with t he simpler things in life?”
I’m a simple man with complex taste. :)
“People still work 14 hours a day…what computer reduces their work? Now we can do a lot more work in our time, but in return, there is more work to be done…unless everybody decided “you know what? Who needs advances in technology and such, I am happy the way I am.” Thats isn’t going to happen.”
Tell me the job and I will tell you how to fix it. Also, why do you keep using computers? I was referring more to machines. Computes are programmable electronic machine that performs high-speed mathematical or logical operations or that assembles, stores, correlates, or otherwise processes information. Logically, computers can’t be used in every situation. However, let’s talk about word sheets: Does typing save me time over traditional pen and pencil writing? Do user input graphs on excel help me save time over traditional pen and color pencil graphing? Does the spell check utility help me correct spelling mistakes? Does the A&A Dice Rolling and Odds Calculator program help me save time over traditional dice rolling? Okay the last one wasn’t really job related unless I become a professional A&A player. :D
“Well capitalist could control them too, but at that point they would probably become customers.”
Hmm… force-fed computers? But really, I like to see your computer customer idea in action! If I create a computer can I program it to be my faithful customer?
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“can a man make something better than himself?”
“Man can never create unto himself to the image of what is better than him. From the moment, he will be filled with such bitter envy of his creation that his rage will suffice in destroying it.” - Primera
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@TG:
“can a man make something better than himself?”
“Man can never create unto himself to the image of what is better than him. From the moment, he will be filled with such bitter envy of his creation that his rage will suffice in destroying it.” - Primera
“Man can!”-HortenFlyingWing
now that’s a quote!
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"And yet there are people working very hard for their pay. It’s true that some teachers won’t work as hard. And other times I’ve seen teachers passionate about their subject (we all know they’re not in it for the money, right?). But is this due to having a guaranteed paycheck or lack of work ethic? Of course the opinion is very subjective. I’ve seen a history teacher at my school win a “Teacher of the Year Award” when all he did was show movies in class! Communism teaches a strong work ethic from an early start. "
So does it? I can say feudalism does the same thing. A Communist system with our society and our race would not keep a hard work ethic without a competition of sorts. What reason is there to work hard if you cannot better yourself, just “the whole human race.” Now don’t get me wrong, i’m not trying to sound selfish, but how about the billions who are? Our society has to change, not our economic system.
“You are assuming everybody will want more.”
And everyone will and does…no one is ever fully provided for or Bill Gates would seel all of his stocks abd sit back.
“There are people in life who are content with what they are. As for their “greed” and “selfishness,” it’s interesting to see how in some Native American cultures an extremely greedy and self-centered act would be to give all of his belongings away.”
Those pacific plains indians? I forgot the name of the ceremony, (something that starts with a P.) They gave a lot of way, but the next guy always had to give more, if I remember what I learned correctly. And people act nice and buy each other dinners…now is that always selflessness? Content with what they are? You are not very content with capitalism, are you???
more later
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“ So does it? I can say feudalism does the same thing. A Communist system with our society and our race would not keep a hard work ethic without a competition of sorts. What reason is there to work hard if you cannot better yourself, just “the whole human race.” Now don’t get me wrong, i’m not trying to sound selfish, but how about the billions who are? Our society has to change, not our economic system.”
There will always be competition. What you’re thinking about is more of the capitalist notion of man vs man. However, what about man vs disease, starvation, building a better future, nature, and poverty against other things? Of course the idea of only bettering ourselves (and maybe those around us), but a lot of this is due to regionalization. When America first started up, it was just thought of a bunch of member states, not as a whole nation (we’ll not until the war of “Northern Aggression.” But that’s a different story 8) ). That’s why for communist to achieve a better place on Earth, it must be global.
“And everyone will and does…no one is ever fully provided for or Bill Gates would seel all of his stocks abd sit back.”
If I was Bill Gates, I would be doing that (we’ll at least far off in one of those remote islands). 8)
“Those pacific plains indians? I forgot the name of the ceremony, (something that starts with a P.) They gave a lot of way, but the next guy always had to give more, if I remember what I learned correctly. And people act nice and buy each other dinners…now is that always selflessness? Content with what they are? You are not very content with capitalism, are you???”
(Not sure if was the Plains Indians)
Here comes the selfishness, people who gave more were looked upon as being “better” (causing reverse greed) compared to those who gave less. Of course we see a form of this today. Two prideful neighbors work in different jobs. One losses his job. The other offers a job to the neighbor where he works. The man rejects. This is because his own pride couldn’t stomach the offer and it would always seem to him that the other man was taking pity him and trying to make himself look better. Ask any Native American on a reservation if he would be more content with his situation right now or if things would’ve been better before the white man came. Go ahead, I dare ya. :wink: Did I ever say I was content? Don’t worry, I will be. -
it was called a “potlach”!
"here will always be competition. What you’re thinking about is more of the capitalist notion of man vs man. However, what about man vs disease, starvation, building a better future, nature, and poverty against other things? Of course the idea of only bettering ourselves (and maybe those around us), but a lot of this is due to regionalization. When America first started up, it was just thought of a bunch of member states, not as a whole nation (we’ll not until the war of “Northern Aggression.” But that’s a different story ). That’s why for communist to achieve a better place on Earth, it must be global. "
and it is next to impossible with the diversity of the world’s cultures that, that will happen. Not only that, I find that the system is flawed ebcause how man inherintly acts. (spell.)
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