I live in Xenia which is about 45 min away from cincy.

F_ALK- sorry you feel that way- that was not my intent.

and you’ve got some of the replies jumbled together.

my point was to reflect that the auto industry IS NOT holding back technology. but I’m really getting tired of arguing about it. yes environmentalists push for newer standards, but my point was that these can be easily circumvented if your goal is to cheat. once again my point was lost.
I too care about the environment as a matter of personal responsibility. it is legal here to dump ethylene glycol into the drains here. and I believe it takes on the neighborhood of 100 gallons of water to distill one ounce of anti freeze. now I could dispose of this in the ohio river, but I don’t. I recycle it, not because we need more laws to force me to, but because I choose to. I’m not anti environment - but because I disagree with your methods you insinuate I am. just like when you said I have racist tendencies because I think that if you can’t work you should starve, or even though I am extremely anti government you accuse me of being brainwashed by their propaganda. come on now.

I can see that many of you will not accept anything but your own view of the world. that is fine, you asked my opinion and I gave it. then you said I was wrong and critisized me for it. that’s fine too. I won’t argue, say whatever you believe to be the facts and ignore all those in opposition.
and before you say that I do this too, please bear in mind that I have listened to all of your arguments, and where applicable acknowledged my mistake.

cystic- most of the red tape they face is environmental policy. not access or implementation. and the only hold ups that I see is in field trials. you have to test and retest before you can turn these things loose. the technology has not proven itself to be durable enough for the average joe yet. but I understand your point.

that was a reply from one of falks replies.
Isaid I was not a racist because I didn’t hate anyone based on a particulaly identifiable trait. he replied that the jews had no identifiable triat and the nazis really hated them. I was merely commenting that they over came this by making them wear the stars.

the naazi thing was only a poke at fun. I know F_ALK is not a nazi- he totally disregarded peiper. he is a socialist, and after arguing with him on some legitamate points (some of which he has swayed my opinion) I feel comfortable in discussion with him. he tends to offer specific counters to my arguments rather than vague gestures. that’s how you discuss.

do you really think the world governments will allow the USA to control Iraq’s oil? if you want WW3 that’s a good way to start. that’s were russia gets their oil, not to mention the ukraine (who has most of russia’s nukes). that is not an accurate/legitimate concern.

your first point is a bit more difficult. firstly because I feel that the correct type of government for Iraq (or the world) is psuedo democratic. as either a republic or parlimentary system.
unfortunately this tends to take time to develope in oppressed countries. if we eliminate saddam and install a democracy, it will be quickly overthrown, and more than likely you’d get either a fundamentalist regime or civil war in it’s place.
it’s likely that the reason we are still dealing with the un at all is for this very reason. then we can leave UN peace keepers or even an arab coalition in charge. otherwise we have to stay there and insure that the people we initially choose, stay in power.- until the country is stable enough for free elections.
and by free elections falk “yes” I mean elections that will keep a western freindly regime, and not turn things back over to another dictatorship. so I guess they won’t actually be free, but neither are ours “here chose between satan of lucifer”.

F_ALK - just like a naazi to twist my words around. the differense (to me) is that as an individual, my situation doesn’t matter to the economy- and I did referense the economic feasablility of putting 100,000 gas stations out of business. that would have major repercussions.

MY PROOF THAT THERE IS NO CORPERATE BOOGEY MAN- dragging his heels on hydrogen cars to force you to buy oil.

and please bear with me.

when the environmental lobbies first gained enough influence in congress to inact environmental laws (before most of you were born), the auto industry had cars that got 8-12 mpg. emmissions looked like this CO2= 1.% CO= 12% -14%, HC= 1500 ppm, (what does that mean- well todays standards to pass state e checks are co 1.% ± .2%, hc 120 ppm (or less for most) with the co2 raised to 14-16% (good).
the initial direction the industry was to do exactly what you say they are doing. they put catalytic converters and air pumps (and a few other novelties) on cars. they still got 8-12 mpg, but boy did that clean up the emmissions. to near current standards.
now had they not been serious about refining the technology to be more eco friendly this trend would have continued - right?
but it did not. along came improvements in fuel metering and delivery, and gas mileage went up- and emmissions went down. so much so that converters are only 1/4 of their original size. and cars no longer use air pumps. mpg has progressed from 8-12, 12-16, to 18-22, to 22-28 and now far beyond that.
there is no conspiracy, no legislation is needed, the changes will happen soon enough.
that’s the problem with young people you always want things your way now. but when you start to see the consequenses of your rash and inexperienced decisions you will start to grow more conservative. either that or you’ll keep screaming about conspiracy theories in the right as you drift more left.
TG- I drive from xenia ohio to pittsburg pen (to take my son to see the carnegie museum of natural history) about once a month or so. why? because it’s quality family time, we do it in a day and a half (sometimes only one day) , and we do it to spend time together. why should I give that up because someone not quite half my age feels the world will explode tomarrow if I don’t buy a hydrogen mini cooper? this is not an attack, but a seriuos question.
you kids have no Idea how long your life is. you’ve got years and years ahead of you. but you are being fed information at such a high rate you want everything at that high rate. you can’t rush life, and you shouldn’t.
like that old saying- “you can’t rush progress” and you can’t. the technology will come out and be progressively developed so that everyone gets the oportunity to benefit from it. not just a select few.

and F_ALK- the idea that if we had a few visionaries to raise taxes and force people to convert is a bad Idea. once you give the government a precident they will keep it. do you think they’ll give that money back once the technology is out there. no- it will pad their wallet and benefit the social programs of their constituates. see federal income tax. IE… originally a temporary tax to pay for WW2. hmmm. and then what else will they force on us? GPS sensors- “well if you ever come up missing we can locate you instantly”, pretty soon we’re all doing government prescribed exercises, and living and working in ghettos.

oh yes, and the germans found a way to easily Identifly the jews for racism, they made them sew a big yellow star on their clothes. that way you could easily Identify who you hated. you have to have some way to easily Identify who you hate.

yanni me and falk have been going round and round with that IDEA. what you give france credit for, he critisizes us for doing the same with the contras. but instead of calling it winning the war for us, or them, WE"VE been calling it meddling.

I’m glad at least cystic is finally aboard. I watched the whole thing on cspan - and please don’t comment if you haven’t heard it or just read the “jist” of it. that would be a complete injustice.

firstly I think he is still a great speaker, and probably the administrations biggest asset (and likely the first black president).
secondly I think he made all the points that I thought he would

1- the “allowed” aluminum tubes that everyone was claiming were for rockets were actually intended to part of a magnetic centrifuge for inriching uranium. I didn’t know that, but he was so thorough that I could darn near built a bomb now.
2- the “never been proven connection to al queada”. he not only named Iraq’s current al queada contact IN bagdad, (ZARQAWI) and his european cell network. he explicitly described that pre 9-11, top al queada operatives recieved training in IRAQ, on forgery and chemical weapons developement techniques. specifically ssighting ATIFF on three seperate occassions as going into Iraq to recieve this training between 97-2000. he also said that after the US embassy bombings in africa, saddam and osamas reps. signed formal agreements which removed Iraq from osamas target list. and allowed him to start channeling money into al queada.
3- he gave clear audio and visual evidence that not only was Iraq still manufactering chemical weapons, but he was hiding them as well.

and this infers that the inspectors mission is still being compromised (france) and will never be successful. I think that you cannot argue with him, unless of course you didn’t actually listen. you believe the lessons your teachers teach at school, and they don’t give you nearly as much information as powel did. why is that?

F_ALK-should it be like that (the law of the jungle)- should you have the right to expect it not to be? if you carry yourself by this code, then you will never need the help of another individual. and if you expect the help when you fail, then eventually you become indifferent towards failure. failure is unacceptable. period…

should a doctor be liable, or should I… yes, and we both are. if I break something, mis diagnose something, or by actions directly cause an accident then I personally, as well as the business I work for (in larger cases) are responsible. how much a doctor should have to pay is a topic of debate. many unworthy sloth’s feel their pain and suffering is worth millions, I feel it’s worth about the .32 cents it costs me for a 9mm round. but that’s another story.

no wonder you didn’t own an atari- so I’m arguing with another kid.

ok, the rule of the jungle is survival of the fittest. if you overspecialize- and the environment changes- you die. unless you can adapt. sorry about your luck but that’s how real life is.
there is no safety net to catch you in real life. when you fall sometimes you fall real hard. then your choices are to get up or give up. survive or be eaten. I have no pity for someone who boxed out all of their options, and then act like life owes them something for the decisions they made. life doesn’t owe anyone anything. that’s the beauty of it. success or failure is completely up to you- the individual. and you can go as far as your talents will take you. nothing says that if you want to do this for a living that someone will pay you to do it. that’s why they’re called starving artists. and if you have to relocate to work in the field you choose, then your choice is to relocate, learn a new skill, or move down the social ladder.
the job I got laid off from was a government job. excellent benefits, easy laid back environment. when we started to get word that the layoffs were coming, many people freaked. most of my co-workers were old men 50+ and near retirement. almost no automotive shops pay salary, they have a performance based system called flat rate. these guys had never even seen a labscope, much less had any experience with fuel injection. they knew they couldn’t compete in a soft job market. who would want to hire an over the hill mechanic that will raise your health care premiums and only be half as productive?
those guys were scared, and rightfully so, they are all still on unemployment as far as I know. but I was realistic, I kept doing the things that made me successful, and I walked away from that job and back to my old one without missing a beat. maybe someday someone will eat me, but until then it’s survival of the fittest- and rightfully so.

I don’t remember the constitution saying anything about your right to a government safety net if life throws you a curve ball….

OH MY GOSHZ! for once we agree, quick somebody dial up F_ALK before I pass out!

TG I’ve never heard of sodium borohydride. as I said I’m not a student, just a descent mechanic. what I know about fuel cells is from work.
I assume it’s naturally a solid, what do you have to expose it to to release the hydrogen??? and what’s left over (sounds like sodium and something else, solids are bad for fuel cells.

Yanni that’s what I meant about the carbon. co2 is good, co is bad, and C in the engine/motor/or fuel cell is bad.

cystic, what kind of road blocks do you percieve are comming from the auto industry?? I am in this industry and I see none. auto manufacterers feel the environmental pressure to change and are doing it, just as fast as technology will allow. but they are private enterprises, you surely wouldn’t expect them to build the “homer mobile” and go bankrupt on unproven technology. sure we can build these cars right now, and obviuosly we are. but before they will sell, they have to be as durable,and as effective as the car you have now. new technology tends to not be so durable… or affordable. give it a few years to become commonplace and we’ll all have them.

good example 1960’s. cadillac developes automotive fuel injection. pros, better gas mileage, performance. cons frequent break downs no one has the tools or info to fix them. several decades pass, machining and computers advance to the point where fuel injection can be dependable. and better controlled. now fuel injection is so bullet proof that it’s taken for granted.

and finally TG, 20 miles a day may be ok for a commuter, but realistically we want at least the range we have today (3-400 miles) people take family vacations, and you don’t want to be cramped up in some under powered, sodium borohydride hog. I mean lets not be too short sighted. you want cleaner air, and water, but you don’t want everyone driving those little echos. you want power, performance, leg room, headroom (heh heh), and trunk space. the kids want to use their video games, and maybe you want a stereo. lets not jump head first into something that we may end up having to settle for. It won’t be long and we’ll have all of that. not because of the government (well not wholly) but becuase the private sector wants it. if the government helps with retrofitting and schoolastic programs good.
I’ll probably hate myself for this- but this is another thing I agree with yanni on. some of the only things the government should have control over are the ultilities the environment and national parks. because they directly benefit all of the citizens.