Hmm-
  Insuring that my opponents are all drunk or brand new to the game-its a strategy that hadn’t occurred to me. :-D :lol:

Hmm-
  Insuring that my opponents are all drunk or brand new to the game-its a strategy that hadn’t occurred to me. :-D :lol:

“Right now the allies have gone 100% KGF.  This results in a 90+ IPC Japan before Berlin falls.”

No way.  Even Uncle Joe (who thinks the Axis can win) says Japan at 70.
I think Japan peaks at about 65 (50 + all 3 National Objectives).

Uncle Joe-
  In both of your and our games, the situation appears to be about the same. I agree with your numbers in the broad sense (though I think Japan is slightly lower-65 rather than 70). Its what happens next that matters.

At roughly the end of turn 5, your numbers are approximately right.  Japan has taken India, China, Australia, all of the Pacific (more or less-maybe not quite all of China, maybe all of China but not yet Australia, but generally right).  US/UK have landed in Morocco (or have landed, and perhaps been kicked out of, western Europe).  Germany is on the defensive in the East (probably holding Poland, perhaps holding one or two of the border regions in Russia).  Russia is getting the strength to continue pushing west.  italy/Germany hold the top part of Africa (minus Morocco) and perhaps part of the interior of Africa (from blitzing German tank).

But now, US/UK threaten to either permanently hold western europe or conquer Italy (and take their money), and will be pouring 6-10 ground forces into Europe per turn.  Thus, Germany/Italy have to defend western Europe.  Which allows Russia to continue to press from the East (into Poland, into Rumania/Balkans, wherever Germany is weakest).  Germany/Italy lose their national objectives (US/UK in western Europe as well as Morocco-sometimes Gibraltar just to ruin the NO).  ON TURN 6:  Italy probably falls.  Poland possibly falls (and Germany proper is now threatened by all 3 allies).

Japan: to achieve 65 income, at the end of turn 5, they have: a fleet down in Australia.  A fleet in India.  Some (not alot) ground forces in Western/central China.  some (not alot) ground forces in India.  Factories in Japan and a few coastal areas-perhaps Manchuria, Vietnam, maybe even the islands in the Pacific worth 4.  Thus, ON TURN 6: Japan build a whole bunch of ground forces-in Japan, in Manchuria, in Vietnam (which are 3 turns from the front lines!!-they won’t be in the fight until turn 9!).  The fleet near India can threaten Madagascar or the east coast of Africa (worth maybe 2-3 income).  The fleet in Australia spends turns 6,7 and maybe 8 just getting somewhere useful.  The ground forces in China and India plod one space forward-to the space west of India, to the space west of western China-for another 2 dollars.

In short, I think your and our games are pretty similar at the end of turn 5.  But turn 6, Italy falls, Japan builds a bunch of stuff in Japan, and captures 4 dollars worth of irrelevance in central asia and east africa.  Japan may be a monster, but its an irrelevant monster.

Steve

General Neems-
Our experience is the same as yours.  British can attack turn 3 with 3-4 transports worth, US has shifted all force to the Atlantic and can attack turn 3 with 2-4 full transports (typically, into Morocco, which then threatens France or Italy on Turn 4), Russians build at least as fast as the Germans so Germans are stalemated in the east by turn 4.

Japan can grow by leaps and bounds, but to no effect.  Having an income of 60, owning China, India, and perhaps even Australia allows them to build in Japan, perhaps Manchuria or Vietnam (3 turns away from the front lines).  All to take 3 turns to land on the east coast of Africa.  In 3 turns (turn 7), the game has been long over.

In other words, we don’t see how the Axis has a chance.

Steve

Another game, another axis defeat.

Broadly:
Germans take all three front line russian territories on GT1 (they can’t take Karelia w/o using most of their air: that leaves the British fleet intact). Note that this only costs Russians 7 infantry.
Russians BACK UP on GT 1, leaving a screen of 1 inf in the 2nd line.  With builds (3 tanks, 5 inf), they build up in Russia and Caucus.  If Germans attack into one (say, Karelia), Russians counterattack in the south and cut off German bonus. 
Meanwhile, the entire American Pacific fleet moves to Panama (whatever survives-probably not the battleship in Pearl Harbor).  They build forces on the east coast to threaten western Europe/Africa.  The British build a fleet in the northwest.  They will be able to invade somewhere on Turn 2.  Americans possibly on turn 2, definitely on turn 3.
The Japanese rampage, but ultimately it doesn’t matter.  In each game, Japanese end up around 50 (+ bonuses) on about turn 4/5, have taken India, all of the Pacific, possibly even Australia.  But they are too far away to make that count in Russia.

As long as the Germans are stalemated in Russia (and they will be, by turn 3), and threatened in the west by US/Britain (and they will be, by turn 3), It is irrelevant what Japan does.  Japan gets to 50 or so, has bonuses to have an income of 60 or so, and has reached its high water mark around India/western China (while conquering all of the Pacific).  At that point, their next step-threaten Russia, isn’t viable because they produce too far away, or don’t have the transports, to have a strong threat.  Germany/Italy are being squeezed by this time, so Russia is able to start shipping ground forces east towards the Japanese front lines.

By turn 5, its over-no axis is conquered, but Germany/Italy are shrunken, and Japan has maxed out.

Sk
Sk

“How does Russia back it’s troops out of these territories on R1? Germany goes first in the '41 scenario. These troops would be dead.”

I have to admit that I don’t know.  I’ve not played the Russians yet (I’ve always been focused either on Japan or the Atlantic, and have never paid much attention to Russia-my buddies have always played the Russian/German battle). I was basing that statement on what some of my colleagues said they do.

Tonight, I play Russia.  I’ll let you know.

Sk

Polar Express: take Alaska.

Once again, do the timing/math.

Turn 1: Japan takes Alaska (note that they risk their fleet to bombers, and by doing so, fail to take islands elsewhere, so there are downsides.  But assume its done).

Turn 2: (assuming Britain doesn’t take it back with forces and fighters in Canada). Japan builds a factory in Alaska.  Note that on this turn, US/Britain are landing, or threatening a landing, in Morocco or western Europe.

Turn 3: Japan builds 2 tanks in Alaska.  Note on this turn, US/Britain can make a strong landing in Western Europe, and can conceivably threaten Italy.  Italy and Germany are now sending substantial forces to the west.

Turn 4: Japan takes Western Canada with its two tanks in Alaska, and builds 2 more tanks in Alaska.  US/Britain have now landed in western europe at least twice, possibly 3 times.

Turn 5:  Japan could threaten Western United States with 4 tanks (2 in Western Canada, 2 blitzing from Alaska).  This is a paltry force.  Meanwhile, US/Britain will make their 3rd or 4th landing in Western Europe.  They should be able to either take Italy or hold western Europe.  (in fact, by this turn, Germany will probably be in trouble-from the landings in western Europe as well as the pressure from Russia).

The build limit in Alaska (2 units), as well as the time requirements (5 turns to even make a puny, easily defensible attack on Western US), make the Alaskan scheme irrelevant.

Sk

I’m in the same Kansas City gaming group.  We may be making some mistake that may give the Axis a better chance that we have experienced, but when I read the comments on this board, I don’t see that mistake yet.  The comments supporting Axis chances don’t take into account the timing in the game.  Until they do, I remain in agreement with CraigBee: the Axis have no chance.

Here are a few timing facts that impact my views of your comments:

1. the allies will be able to land in Europe or Africa on Turn 2 (they may not be able to stay, and I suppose if Germany/Italy goes all out to defend, this landing can be stopped, but in that case, Germany and Italy have already stopped expanding).  Either the US will be able to land in Africa, or the US/Britain will be able to land in Western Europe.  Again, they may not hold it: but they’ve already slowed German/Italian expansion.
2. There are 6 spaces between the Japanese front lines and Moscow (I believe-I’m at work and am going from memory).  That means, it is turn 6 before the Japanese can threaten Moscow (and realistically, this would be a minimal threat.  A true threat to Moscow wouldn’t be until turn 8 or so).

Until your Axis plans really take these two timing facts into account, you will have failed to convince me.  Specifically:

1)  “I don’t think Japan should be going to Russia full blown. Just invest enough in Asia to gain a territory every turn, slowly creeping up to Russia.”

Again, that means you will be in Moscow on Turn 6/7/8.  Which means the western allies have been invading western Europe for 4 straight turns.  Which means Germany/Italy are done.

2. “Japan needs to take out US NO money in the islands, Brit money in the Far East, and then turn attention to USSR.”  Doing all of what you say in the Far East will take 3 turns (minimum).  Turn 1, the Japanese take several Islands (including Phillippines).  Turn 2, perhaps, they could take either Australia or India.  Note that in either case, the entire fleet is then out of position to take the second (take India, and you are out of position to take Australia, and vice-versa).  So you are really looking at turn 4.  By turn 5, you can focus on Russia.  Remember the first problem?  America/Britain have now been invading western Europe for 2-3 turns, and you have just started focussing on Russia.  In 3-4 turns, maybe you will get to Moscow (assume you start in India).  But we’re now at turn 7.  Germany/Italy fell two turns ago.

3)  “As soon as the Japanese player suspects the US is not playing in the Pacific (generally by J2, but a good US player can disguise it for maybe one more turn) they should drop an IC in Asia (more when you have India).”

Try it.  Say you figure out the US is headed for Germany on Turn 2.  You build a factory on Turn 3. You can start building in the factory on turn 4.  You now have 6 turns (6 spaces) to get to Moscow-that’s turn 10.  Germany/Italy went down on turn 5 or 6.

4. “Germany needs to pound Russia EXTREMELY hard in round 1.  It’s your only chance.  So far, I’ve seen Germany win almost every game of KG/KIF if they take Karelia, Baltic States, East Poland and Ukraine on Round 1…Because you in essence take out most of Russia’s infantry”

This is exactly why the Russians back out of those spaces on Turn 1.  Their infantry survives, the Germans take a few spaces worth a few dollars, and the Russians counterattack on turn 2-just enough to force the Germans to continually refight for that front-line national bonus. The Germans don’t get closer to Moscow, the Russians save their infantry, and on turn 2/3 the allies start landing in western Europe. In other words, if this scheme works for ONE TURN, the Germans already have to start shifting reinforcements to the West (and away from Russia)

In essence, your plans for the Axis have to take two facts into account:

1. Germany will be on the defensive (in Western Europe and western Africa) to a limited degree on turn 2, and more solidly on turn 3.  It will be enough to limit expansion in Russia-thus Germany will also be on the defensive (or at stalemate) in Russia by turn 3.
2. Japan, no matter what it does,  cannot threaten Moscow until turn 6.  Realistically, the threat on turn 6 is minimal (a few tanks, a few planes).  A realistic threat to Moscow from Japan won’t happen until roughly turn 8.
   Thus,
3. Between Turns 3 and 8, Germany and Italy are effectively fighting the British, Russians, and Americans alone.  The Russian economy will roughly match the German, the British will slightly exceed the Italian (even with losses in the Pacific).  The American economy is the margin of victory.  Germany and italy either fall or are emasculated by turn 5/6.  No matter what Japan does.

Until you can break the timing-geography facts*: Japan can’t get to moscow until turn 6/7/8, and Western allies can land in western europe on turn 2/3, the axis can’t win.

*and maybe its possible-we just haven’t seen it, and I haven’t read an argument supporting it yet.

Sk