@Sihrtogg:

Of course I’m playing devil’s advocate here

You play a good devil’s advocate.  In fact, it was enough to make me reconsider a few things that I hadn’t thought of last night.

@LHTR:

All combat takes place at the same time, but each affected territory or sea zone is resolved separately and completely before beginning to resolve another combat. The attacker decides the order…

I had focused on the first half of that sentence.  But it does specifically call out to resolve it completely in the second half (side note: does this mean you have to do the strategic bombing immediately before or after the regular attack?  In other words, you can’t go resolve a different country and then come back?)

Anyway, the real question we are asking here is how many IPCs end up being captured.  The issue is that the amount is different depending on how we interpret the rules.

I make two assumptions for the next scenarios: Japan saved 10 IPCs before making their attacks.  Japan will roll a 6 on the Rockets.

• USSR has $11 > Rockets hit > USSR has $5 > Japan captures > Japan has $15

• USSR has $3 > Rockets hit > USSR has $0 > Japan captures > Japan has $10

• USSR has $11 > Japan captures > Japan has $21 > Factory remains hostile for now* > Rockets hit (USSR $0 stays at $0) > Japan still has $21

• USSR has $3 > Japan captures > Japan has $13 > Factory remains hostile for now* > Rockets hit (USSR $0 stays at $0) > Japan still has $13

• USSR has $11 > Japan captures > Japan has $21 > Factory becomes Japan’s > Rockets hit** > Japan now has $15

• USSR has $3 > Japan captures > Japan has $13 > Factory becomes Japan’s > Rockets hit** > Japan now has $7 (less than they started with!)

• This assumes industrial complexes remain hostile until the end of all combat.
  ** This seems to run afoul of the rule:
  @LHTR:

At no time may an Allies power attack another Allies power, or an Axis power attack another Axis power.

Then again, it does say “another” power.  Nothing about yourself.

Since the last two options (with **) seem to run afoul of another rule, I would argue that that interpretation should not be used.
Which leaves the first 4 scenarios and it seems that Japan should always try to capture first, then do Rockets.
Of course, if someone argues that Industrial Complexes do not remain hostile (that they are immediately captured) then I’d say that they are arguing that Rockets MUST be resolved first.  Because otherwise, we need to make up rules that either Rockets/strategic bombing can be cancelled, OR that you are allowed to attack yourself.

So one of these rules/clarifications needs to be added:

1. Rockets and strategic bombing must be resolved before a regular attack on the same territory.
2. Captured industrial complexes don’t become friendly until after all combat is resolved.
   3a) Rockets/strategic bombing raids can be called off, OR
   3b) Rockets/strategic bombing raids can be called off if it would hit your own factory, OR
   3c) It’s possible you end up in a situation where you have to bomb your own factory and that’s allowed.

Personally, I think option 2 is the best since it keeps the “attacker decides” rule intact.  Option 1 isn’t bad either since that’s basically what I argued for last night.  Any of the third options seems to change too many fundamentals.

@Sihrtogg:

This double attack is legal under LHTR and are seen as two separate combats. My question is regarding the order these two combats are resolved as chosen by the active player.

@Sihrtogg:

If Japan captures Moscow, what happens to the rocket attack?

• Is it cancelled?
• Does it attack the IC as if it was still Russian? (but it will do no damage because Russia has no money)
• Does it do damage to Japan? (which at that point will have the Russian money on hand)

Great question!  You’re right that the rules don’t explicitly state this scenario.  Here’s my take, and the reasoning why:
For all intents and purposes, the rockets (and/or strategic bombing) always hit first and takes away the IPCs before the capital is captured.

Any following quotes are from LHTR v2.0.

All combat movement is considered to take place at the same time

You’ve declared the Rockets in the combat move phase, so they are already in the air, and there’s nothing about skipping the first round of combat once you’ve made a combat move.  (Those rockets are gonna hit.)

All combat takes place at the same time, but each affected territory or sea zone is resolved separately and completely before beginning to resolve another combat.

So officially, those rockets (and/or strategic bombs) are hitting the factory at the same time as your tanks are rolling in and fighting with the infantry.  The fact that the game lets us split up placing units on the battle board is just to keep things clean, in my opinion.  (Less confusion: “was that bomber attacking or strategically bombing?”)

Resolve a strategic bombing raid in the same way as a regular combat. … you may also conduct another (conventional) attack on the same territory this turn.

This seems to (very slightly) imply that the strategic bombing raid happens first, but I could argue it either way.

The attacker decides the order, but any antiaircraft shots at air units passing through a territory on the way to a battle must be resolved before that battle.

This seems unrelated since it’s about antiaircraft guns shooting at planes flying over on their way to other targets.  But note that it’s pointing out that enemy antiaircraft guns are still owned by the enemy, regardless of which order you decide to resolve the battles.  In other words, you cannot go conquer a territory and take over its antiaircraft gun before your other planes fly over.  Why is this important in this case?  Because you capture antiaircraft guns just like you capture industrial complexes.  So if hostile antiaircraft guns always get to shoot, then I could argue that the factories always get bombed while still being hostile as well.

So, since the rules don’t explicitly state what to do, that’s how I would piece together my argument.  Since all combat happens at the same time, the factory gets hit with rockets and I kill all the bad guys, and then I take control of the territory.  Even if you “resolve” it in the other order, you can imagine that’s still what “actually” happened.  The mechanics of the game are there to try and make it simple and this edge case just wasn’t considered.

Thank you.

@thetruegriffin:

I’ve always read the rules that the subs’ opening salvo is similar to AA fire.  You fire at the beginning of combat, but not every time.  they essentially get one free shot (like AA guns) before the attacker rolls.

This is not correct for Revised.  All submarines (attacking and defending) fire during step 2, every round of combat.

@thetruegriffin:

As stated before, if there is a destroyer present, this negates that special ability.

Destroyers do two things: 1) they allow casualties to be able to shoot back, 2) enemy submarines cannot submerge (withdraw early from the battleboard).

Remember, submerged submarines (either side) are not on the battle board any longer.  They are placed back on the game board and are not involved in the battle after submerging.

@thetruegriffin:

Additionally, I’ll double check, but I don’t ever remember the rules stating that subs can’t shoot down planes (most of them actually did have AA capability on the deck).

Submarines can only hit sea units.

Here is the portion of the rulebook that applies (in the submarine unit profile section):
Submarines always fire in the opening fire step, whether on attack or defense. They can fire only on sea units. Casualties from this attack will be destroyed before they can return fire, unless an enemy destroyer is present. (Any sea or air unit can hit a submarine.)

The FAQ also has a page or so dedicated to common submarine questions:
harrisgamedesign.com /pdf/A&A_Revised_5_FAQ.pdf

I have a question about fighters landing using the out-of-the-box rules in the Revised Edition of the game.  I’ve been referencing the FAQ as well.

As far as I can tell, air units involved in combat finish moving to their landing sites right after their combat is resolved.  On page 18 of the PDF rulebook on Wizard’s site, Completing Air Units’ Move is a subsection of Step 8: Capture Territory and therefore happens immediately before I move on to the next contested territory.  (This is different than LHTR where planes move for landing during non-combat.)

Correct me on the above if I’m wrong, otherwise, nothing I ask below will matter.

Imagine the following set up.
A fighter moves 3 spaces to conduct combat. All the land territory nearby is hostile, so a sea zone is the only space within the remaining movement for the plane to go to land.

Scenario A: My aircraft carrier is sitting in the sea zone. No problems, my fighter can move there after conducting combat to land.
Scenario B: My aircraft carrier is not there, but can (and must) move there on non-combat to catch the fighter.  No problem.
Scenario C: My aircraft carrier is there, because it moved there with a large fleet to conduct combat on some enemy boats that were there. Is my fighter allowed to move into a sea zone that has not been cleaned yet (but is contested)?

As far as I see, there are two possible outcomes for scenario C:

1. yes, the fighter can move there.  It cannot be involved in the sea battle (only one battle per turn). It just sits and waits until the battle has been resolved. If the battle goes poorly and we lose the aircraft carrier, or the carrier retreats, then the fighter will be lost at the end of non-combat.
2. no, the fighter is not allowed to move there. In that case, the fighter simply has no valid place to go after it’s combat.  While it was not a kamikaze run (the initial move was legal), it became a suicide run simply based on the order in which the battles were resolved.

Thanks for your time and expertise.

Resurrecting this old topic just to get one more clarification:

@Krieghund:

@liefarikson:

The US, instead, had moved the fighters into SZ 2 during their combat move, ideally destroyed the submarine, and then lands on the UK carrier. Is this move legal?

Yes, whether or not they were successful in destroying the sub.

If these fighters are causing combat, does the UK carrier get dragged into the fight since it is in the same zone?  In other words, does the German sub get to shoot at the carrier?  Obviously the carrier wouldn’t get to roll an attack die since it’s not it’s turn, but is it in danger of being destroyed similar to cargo on a transport that gets unwilling dragged into a conflict?

Would this change at all if the US had brought a boat in as well and we are having a full-fledged sea battle?

This is my first post here, but I had a rules question and figured this is where the experts were.
This is regarding the Revised (2004) edition of the game, using the out-of-the-box rule set.

Imagine, if you will, I have done combat moves to have two different sea battles.
Sea Battle A: 1 carrier, 1 fighter vs 1 enemy submarine
Sea Battle B: 1 carrier, 2 fighters vs 1 enemy submarine
Pretend all the fighters have used up all of their movement points to get to their respective sea zones.  They are planning on landing on the carriers that I moved in.
I also have a 3rd carrier that I am wanting to move elsewhere in non-combat, but it is within range of both sea battles.

Combat phase begins and I resolve Sea Battle A.  The submarine gets a hit which can only be taken by the carrier, and my fighter kills the enemy submarine (sea zone is now friendly).
In this edition, air units complete their moves directly after combat and “You must have a carrier move to pick up a fighter that would end its combat move in a sea zone. … You must declare now that the carrier will move to that zone during the carrier’s noncombat move phase, and you must follow through unless the fighter or the carrier is destroyed before then.” (Rulebook, page 18)

So my 3rd carrier must now be declared that it is going to move the sea zone where Sea Battle A took place.

Now, I resolve Sea Battle B.  The same thing happens.  The submarine and carrier are sunk and I have two fighter planes in the air with no place to land.
Since I resolved Sea Battle A first, and already declared my intention to move my third carrier there, does that mean I cannot change my mind and move it to the Sea Battle B zone?  Because I’d much rather catch 2 of my fighters than 1 of them.  Or am I committed because of the order in which I chose to resolve the battles?

Obviously, what I want is usually opposite of what my opponent wants.  So that’s why I’m asking whether the rules allow me to choose, or whether the declaration to move takes precedence and I cannot pick which planes to save.

==
As a second question, but very much related:
Imagine that we had a sea battle where we moved in 2 carriers and 3 fighters (X, Y, and Z).  Two of the fighters (X and Y) have used all their movement, but one of the fighters (Z) has 1 movement point left.  Again, all carriers are sunk and we are left with planes in the air.  We only have 1 carrier that can move non-combat to catch some of those planes.
Option 1: We declare we are moving our carrier in to the zone where the battle took place and therefore catch fighters X and Y.  (Fighter Z will have no valid landing space and be destroyed.)
Option 2: We move fighter Z to an adjacent space and declare our carrier will move to that space and catch Z.  (Fighters X and Y will have no valid landing space and be destroyed.)
Option 1 catches more planes, but option 2 may be advantageous to us depending on how the board looks.  So the question here is, must I try and catch the MOST planes, or move carriers to at least catch 1 plane each?