I agree with Karl7 and wittmann here.
The bids are going mostly elswhere.
Operation Sealion a Possibility with AA1940 Europe?
-
I don’t think they meant without US/UK aid - but I do think that by D-Day the Soviets had the game in the bag. Aided by SBRs from the western allies yes - but the land invasion of France did nothing but distract an already mortally wounded Germany. If the western allies had continued their aerial attacks - but not invaded Russia would still have won.
In fact - if in 1944 the US and UK had made peace with Germany - I think Russia would still have won. Germany had lost too much by then to be replaced. Not in terms of equipment - which German factories produced in large amounts but in terms of the loss of people; both Army groups south and centre - over 2/3 of their fighting forces - and the remaining third - battered and broken and trying to plug holes which were spread over 100’s of miles of front.
I mean, don’t get me wrong - I’m a brit. But to say that the Russians NEEDED us to invade France in 1944 is wishful thinking. They were begging us to in 1942 - and we didn’t. Then arguably it may have made a difference.
Please note: I am NOT saying the Russians won WWII in europe without the western allies. Just that by 1944 they could have.
The UK/US liberated France - because by 1944 they were already preparing for the Cold War. To pretend it was out of ‘honour’ or ‘commitment’ is fanciful.
I know what you are saying Twigley, but to give the Soviets not DDay, but still the SBR campaign by the US/UK is huge. Those two powers rained down destruction day and night, quite literally on Germany, forcing the Nazis to fight two sides. If it was just the Soviet Bombers that would be different.
Had the Battle of Britain gone better for Hitler, he would have had more to throw at the Soviets to keep him on his timetable for attacking the US in 1945 and those US/UK bombings would not have thrown off his cross-Atlantic ship and aircraft production.
The landings in the North Atlantic and Italy were the Western Allies response to the Soviet’s asking for an invasion in '42 and while they were not landings into European mainland, they were direct attacks against the Axis that had to be countered by the Nazis in particular, pulling away troops and materials from the Eastern Front all the while while the SBR campaign continued to rage.
It really becomes a lot of conjecture…
-
Okay back to Operation Sea Lion
-
A foolish plan in '40 and a foolish plan still today?
-
But if somehow there was a way to make it work, the world would be at my fingertips :evil:
-
Make Sea Lion a really bad gamble, like it probably was in 1940. A sort of : If I win, Axis win. If I lose, Axis lose. The kind of battle no one realy enjoy
-
You could be right
-
What about the inclusion of Airbases now?
The Germans could shuttle across 4 Inf, if the English Channel and mainland is within 3. Plus whatever naval invasion forces they can muster.
Idk, just something I thought of while reading something over at LARRY’S site about the airbases.
This Sealion would have to be second or third turn,depends how long France can last. -
Krump Steel, you must be referring to paratroopers. Germany would have to get a pretty lucky tech roll rd 1 or rd2, then I would say sea lion is a definite possibility. If you got paratroopers early and get to use them the round you get the tech (like AA50) then yea it could be like a sneak attack catching the UK off guard.
That and a bit of naval build-up for bombardment, and more inf via transport with out tipping you hand. Germany should also start with a decent size air force to take on the Britts head to head. You should also still get the +1 ftr & tac bmr bonus too. Another thing to think about is the UK is an island and should start with an air base. It could use some of its island based air force to defend its waters, so what ever you bring via navy could be in store for a pretty good fight.
I would still attack Paris first with Germany, maybe leave the mop up to Italy. Then if your in range go for it. Especially if The UK fails to protect itself, or make good use of its navy.
-
Ah yes, here it is idk_iam_swiss. Let’s talk about Sea Lion in the proper thread.
-
Probably added this to the end of the wrong thread:
LOL, now you’re wanting to go attack England now instead of Russia (before or after finishing off France?). There was some other thread about dividing up England during Sealion since it will be two territories now:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=16471.0
I still think Sealion is an utter waste of time most games, but if you can catch unexperienced Allied players off guard it can be successful (i.e., this only works ONCE on the beginning players, I’m sure an exp. UK player can see it coming a mile away). Perhaps if Russia is prevented from invading Germany till Round 3, (with a reduced income rule like the US as a neutral before entering the war) could this be possible, and it would still be incredibly risky so early in the game. You would probably only get one shot at it by building all trans and a carrier in the Baltic round 1, with the invasion on round 2 before England can really build enough land units to make it completely improbable (also before the US enters the war/has reinforcements in range). I’m guessing 3 loaded transports, with 4 planes and a bomber as air cover would be all Germany would be capable of Round 2, IF Britain hasn’t already damaged/sunk the Baltic fleet and/or blocked the Channel with a sizeable navy stack. Even if Britain went 100% ground defense instead (4-5 inf, 3 arm, 1 fig build on round 1), I’m sure the defending army will be at least equal in number to the invading units Germany has, with odds AND AA gun hits in its favor.
Bah, forget it, you will see the same dillema the OKW came to when Sealion became a possibility after the Fall of France, its just not worth risking all the war material when there are easier fish to fry in Europe. Better to isolate and destroy British holdings elsewhere to weaken it to a surrender-able level.
Plus, by not spending your round 1 ipcs on navy, you’d be reinforcing your armies for eventually invading Russia and defending the continent from the UK.
Also, if we’re not playing with take-capital-take-all-IPCs rules, its definitely not worth the risk. It may not even be worth the risk if you’re going to seize it for only one round’s worth of IPCs, and lose multiple fighters in the process. The surviving UK navy will just take it back with land units from Canada on UK’s turn.
-
Hmm, actually now that its confirmed that the US isn’t a split income (and will have crazy unbalanced mounds of IPCs to throw at either front), a turn 2 Sealion KO attempt with Germany doesn’t seem that bad of an option at all. Looks like this might be the ONLY viable strategy if the US turns out to be a 100+ IPC juggernaut with NOs.
How in the hell can Japan even provide a counterweight against a combined income US like this??? It would take 3-4 turns of Japan navy builds to even ATTEMPT to invade W. USA, out of which 100 IPCs going into ground forces can stop at the drop of a hat.
Guess WOTC wants a new name for the global game of AA1940: TEAM AMERICA: WORLD POLICE! “TEAM AMERICA!!! *%^@ YEAH!!!”
-
Remember that the industrial complexes are capped. So only 10 units per turn can be produced, no matter how much moolah you have.
-
trust me youll run out or money that wont be an issue
-
If UK is the country with the split income, they will only have a partial income to fend off the Germans.
-
Or you can just spend all your combined income in one theatre
-
10 IPC US build, 10 fighters in one round! Thats awesome. Not to say that would be a sound buy depending on what the situation is, but something to think about if japan even attempts to point the bows of her ships towards the US coast.
-
@RogertheShrubber:
10 IPC US build, 10 fighters in one round! Thats awesome. Not to say that would be a sound buy depending on what the situation is, but something to think about if japan even attempts to point the bows of her ships towards the US coast.
Soounds like what happened at Midway.
-
Yeah, 10 fighters one round, anyone else think that could possibly unbalance the game? Oh well, I think IPC counts are increased overall anyways in 1940.
Though Brain Damaged has a great point, if UK is the country with split income, then Sealion looks even more tempting after all.
-
Yeah UK will only be able to defend England with a portion of their income.
-
I would think that a combined US income might provide a bit of incentive to keep Japan from making a J1 attack in the Pacific. Especially in light of potentially giving the US a 60-70 IPC income boost. I can’t wait to try the combined game. The only real debate with my gaming group is do we play Europe alone a few times first or just jump right in.
Suggested Topics
