A Serious Discussion of Technologies in 1941

@Cmdr:

It’s all random though, Axis.

The only difference is, is your strategy strong enough to survive a surprise strategy move or a surprise technology or is your strategy so mired in tradition that any deviation completely throws you off your game?

I fail to see how getting War Bonds is any worse than the defender scoring 3 hits out of 3 chances against your attacking bombers in a major battle, or how getting Radar is any worse than two defending submarines hitting your attacking battleship and your battleship missing.

Hmm, interesting thought… I think you’re right tech isn’t higher on the luck-scale than the average A&A sea + air battle or bombing raid. So it does make sense to include it if playing ADS.

Aah well, LL still rulz  8-)

@mikecool70:

Advanced Artillery:  Russia starts out with a lot of infantry and a 1 artillery build now gives Russia an attack of 4 instead of 3.  That’s like buying a bomber for the cost of only 4 IPCs (although admittedly, these “bombers” can only attack land and are limited to one space).  Such a tech would make it much more difficult for Germany to secure any territory of Russia’s that is next to an industrial complex.  In my opinion, the benefits for Russia are huge if they snag this tech.  Definitely worth the 20 IPC cost.

Err, your numbers are wrong: adv art gives you 6 attack instead of 5 when buying 2 inf 1 rtl. Now, let’s calculate how much attack you can buy for 20 IPC’s: 4 inf and 2 rtl = 10 attack 12 defense 6 hits >= 30 extra “power”. To match this with adv art, you would need to buy at least 30 x 2 inf 1 rtl = 60 inf 30 rtl = 400 IPC’s >= 15 Russian turns. Not mentioning the benefit of the immediate extra army over the prolonged time Russia would need before really benefitting from this tech. So I think you got something wrong here, adv art is definitely not worth the cost of 20 IPC’s…

@mikecool70:

Advanced Artillery:  Russia starts out with a lot of infantry and a 1 artillery build now gives Russia an attack of 4 instead of 3.  That’s like buying a bomber for the cost of only 4 IPCs (although admittedly, these “bombers” can only attack land and are limited to one space).  Such a tech would make it much more difficult for Germany to secure any territory of Russia’s that is next to an industrial complex.  In my opinion, the benefits for Russia are huge if they snag this tech.  Definitely worth the 20 IPC cost.

Err, your numbers are wrong: adv art gives you 6 attack instead of 5 when buying 2 inf 1 rtl. Now, let’s calculate how much attack you can buy for 20 IPC’s: 4 inf and 2 rtl = 10 attack 12 defense 6 hits >= 30 extra “power”. To match this with adv art, you would need to buy at least 30 x 2 inf 1 rtl = 60 inf 30 rtl = 400 IPC’s >= 15 Russian turns. Not mentioning the benefit of the immediate extra army over the prolonged time Russia would need before really benefitting from this tech. So I think you got something wrong here, adv art is definitely not worth the cost of 20 IPC’s…

One artillery attacks at a 2.  It also raises an infantry from a 1 to a 2.  So that’s an additional 3 attack if one artillery is bought.  With advanced artillery, an additional infantry is raised from 1 to 2.  So this gives the player a total of 4 extra attack if you have advanced artillery and buy one artillery.  That is how I came up with the “4 instead of 3” statement from my last post.

I did make a mistake in my last post regarding Mechanized Infantry.  If you spend 10 IPCs on R1, then obviously you are limited to 4 tanks built on R1 instead of 6.

Another thing I’ve thought of, it might be actually better to spend 15 IPCs on turn 1 for Russia.  That way, the Russian player could not spend any money on tech on turn 2 and still get 3 rolls if they did not get tech on turn 1.  They would still get 6 rolls but save 5 IPCs in the process.  Of course, this would result in 5 IPCs less of units for Russia on turn 1, so it’s debatable whether or not it’s worth it or not.

I think Russia should only spend 5 on Tech in Rd 1.  I don’t think they can afford 15 or even 10.  Germany can be pretty aggressive in rd 1 and regardless of the Tech Russia got if successful the lack of 5 infantry is going to hurt.  Plus there are only a few Techs that will help Russia and other than War bonds, the offensive techs would either require you to build boms, rt, or arm and are mainly good for attack where you are likely to be on the defensive early.

I would invest 5 because you never lose the roll and can always add one more roll on rd 2 if you did well in round 1.

I would think Jet ftrs would be pretty killer for Germany as well.  A 10 ipc unit that attacks and defends at 4.  Yikes!

I’d probably take my chances rolling on that chart, either HB or Jets would be awesome, LRA/Radar are certainly serviceable, while subs (unless rd 1) and shipyards require a strategy shift or are useless.

If you got Jets and LRA early enough, game over.  The Allies wouldn’t be able to keep a ship in the water.

I thinking about the Heavy Bomber Tech. Is it optimal in the way it looks today?

I think there is two options:

• Keep it the way it looks today: 2D6 SBR dmg, 2D6 @4 on attack
• Use the LHTR variant: SBR-damage = D6+2, Attack value = 5, Defense value = 1

Any thoughts?

Super Submarines are useful. They are the cheapest ship and they can sink otehr ships without them retaliating. Of course Destroyers are their bane, but that doesn’t mean if the opponent has destroyers your subs are useless. Far from it, they can be used to pick off lonely ships, which would force your opponent to mass his fleet, which is in itself an advantage because they cannot sprawl all across the oceans hitting multiple targets. And subs can take out ships more powerful than themselves, I’ve seen plenty of battles where subs kill destroyers, cruisers, carriers, and even battleships. I’ll trade a sub for any of those, any day. Super Subs just make them even better at attacking. I’ll admit that it isn’t a huge improvement, but still it’s nice to sink those ships on a 3, when they could have fired back and killed your sub otherwise.

The problem with Heavy Bombers, they way I see it, is that they are extremely powerful against navy…

A unit that is rolling 2@4, and costs 12…
Sure, it can only soak 1 hit, but still… How can build anything to defend against that?

For 34 ipc, the naval defender can buy  2FTRs+1CV, equal 2@4 1@2, “3 hitpoints”
For 36 ipc, the HB Attacker can buy 3 Heavies, equalling 6@4, and also “3 hitpoints”…

The HB:s will just clear the oceans, the way I see it…

I am new to this site, but a long time AA player with a few dozen AA50 games under my belt, and I thought I would throw in my few cents about tech. 
It seems that tech has been a huge determining factor in the games I have played thus far.  Long range aircraft and heavy bombers have been game changing developments, usually allowing for the sinking of a previously assumed safe navy.  And in several games Germany has received Mech Inf just when Russia seemed to have staved off the initial onslaught. 
And while I can’t say that I enjoy having my plans laid to waste, I do enjoy the extent of variety the tech creates from game to game.  No two have even been similar, as we are forced to adapt to the changing dynamic.
  Also I must say that super subs (and subs at all) can be very useful if played correctly.  While I would rather have other techs instead, I have seen America dominate the Pacific with this advancement, and Germany keep the allies at bay in the Atlantic (assuming an IC in France).

The problem with tech is that as Axis you need to get the NO’s ASAP in order to have some comfortable buying cushion for them. 
Now your strategy is –strive to get NO’s --to get tech --to blow out opponent.  This strategy just seem too linear.

Also, the 3% chance is skewed thinking.  Heavy Bombers is not the only bone-crushing tech.

Certain tech can be devastating for certain powers depending on who gets them. 
The US, because of its location of safety on the map and its diverse battlefronts, can utilize more of the tech than other nations, that will increase the 3% to 6%, 12% or over 20%- big difference. 
I don’t want my game decided by large amounts of chance like that.  Its like playing roulette- or Russian roulette for that matter!

Like I’ve said before, I think playing with tech is fun, and even though it is much better than Revised, it still skews the game greatly.  In FTF tournaments, they never play with tech because of this very logical reasoning.  IMHO-leave tech for entertainment night.

Questioneer
:-)

Question is then, maybe figure out how to rebalance out the weaker and stronger of the techs such that they are all balanced, and all useful, and not instantly game crushing.
If Long Range Aircraft cripples enemy plans because of the fact that it is an instantaneous and indefensible attack, then perhaps make that one take effect at the end of the round. If Heavy Bombers at 2x4 is too decimating compared to other techs, perhaps make it powerful enough but not fleet crippling…perhaps 1 auto hit every round, and a strategic bombard always of 6? It’s more powerful than just increase its strength to 5, but can only still manage one kill a round so whole fleets wont fall to just a handful of heavy bombers.
Now, by making stronger techs weaker, you must make weaker techs stronger to still balance the system. Question is then, which are the weaker techs, and how do you justify their usefulness?

You can’t identify the weaker techs because for every tech there is a country that benefits more than others. For example, Improved shipyards help Japan, UK and US but do little for Germany and Russia.

Your best bet would be to dumb down the more powerful techs

I think for heavy bombers, an attack 5/defense 2 and +2 damage on SBRs is adequate. No unit(except rockets) should ever auto-hit in a game.

LRA should add only 1 move instead of 2 to the range of aircraft.

And there should be a limit to the number of infantry capable of being moved as mech infantry, such as 1 or 2 per turn. Or keep the unlimited number of moves, but limit it to being used only during non-combat.

Fair enough on the points on weaker techs, but I kind of think auto-hitting bombers would be neat, sort of represents the complete saturation from increased payloads. A defense of 2 is useless on something that really never ever should have to defend anything.

How do heavy bombers fair against improved shipyard destroyers though.

5 @ 2 /w 5 HP +1 IPC
4 @ 4 /w 3 HP

looks a bit more even.

@bugoo:

How do heavy bombers fair against improved shipyard destroyers though.

5 @ 2 /w 5 HP +1 IPC
4 @ 4 /w 3 HP

looks a bit more even.

I believe that your numbers are a bit off.

I believe that you are trying to say the following:

Compare Improved Shipyard Destroyers to Heavy Bombers.

Purchase 5 DDs for 35 IPCs vs 3 Heavy Bombers for 36 IPCs.  This will produce the following:

5 @ 2 with 5 Hits (Save 1 IPC.)
vs
6 @ 4 with 3 Hits

After the first round, it should be down to 1 DD vs 1 Bomber, which results in most scenarios, the Heavy Bombers winning with 1 Bomber left over, destroying 35 IPCs for a cost of 24 IPCs.  Clearly the Heavy Bombers still have the distinct advantage.

@U-505:

You can’t identify the weaker techs because for every tech there is a country that benefits more than others. For example, Improved shipyards help Japan, UK and US but do little for Germany and Russia.

Your best bet would be to dumb down the more powerful techs

I think for heavy bombers, an attack 5/defense 2 and +2 damage on SBRs is adequate. No unit(except rockets) should ever auto-hit in a game.

LRA should add only 1 move instead of 2 to the range of aircraft.

And there should be a limit to the number of infantry capable of being moved as mech infantry, such as 1 or 2 per turn. Or keep the unlimited number of moves, but limit it to being used only during non-combat.

I think this is the right idea here, however, it very difficult to “measure” the value of the tech because of the different variables involved- what country gets them and at what time in the game, etc.- all left to chance.  Might as well play paper, rock, scissors to see who wins the game.
Just say “no” to tech- except for casual games of course.

Questioneer.

@Tarling:

Fair enough on the points on weaker techs, but I kind of think auto-hitting bombers would be neat, sort of represents the complete saturation from increased payloads.

Yes, but even heavy bombers in reality missed their targets on occasion. And the nature of the game makes it impossible to even come close to accurately representing World War 2 realism. Our goal is to keep the game playable. You want to make techs worth investing in, but you want to try to prevent some techs from being able to turn the game upside down.

A unit that auto-hits would still turn the game upside down. It guarantees that you would always be able to trade a territory without a chance that you could lose the battle. [1 bmb, 2 inf v. any 1 unit] is an automatic win. Nothing should be automatic.

A defense of 2 is useless on something that really never ever should have to defend anything.

Have you even been attacked in a territory where you had to choose whether to lose the bomber first to save an infantry or risk keeping the bomber and it’s pathetic defensive value? I have, quite a few times. As a matter of fact, it happens to Germany in most games and in 42’ it happens to Russia since they start with a bomber, too.

It doesn’t happen every game or to every country, but if it happens to you, you’re begging for your bomber to hit as well as an infantry so you can push it further up the OOL list.

I’m with Perry on the Heavy Bombers problem. It’s just too strong to have 2 dice. I think, I’m not alone on this I know, that this will mean techs will be less used which is a shame now that we finally have a really good tech system.

My fix for H BMBs: if you play with optional rule interceptors: attack on ‘5’, 2d6 SBR damage. If you don’t: attack on ‘5’, 1d6+2 SBR damage.

I’m fine with techs being unequal, I just don’t think one tech should be triple the value of other techs as it is now (Jet fighters: 33% increase attack value, H BMBs OOB: 100% increase attack value, PLUS SBR boost).