UK Basics

trihero

I don’t know who decided 28 IPC in naval units was a good trade for 8 IPC in naval units, especially when England now has to build those same 28 IPC back in England now.

The reasoning is simple, you can’t wait 5 turns for those units in order to go to Norway. You seem to build a carrier/sub on Round 1 so it’s not even like you’re waiting for those units, is it? It’s an opportunity thing. I wouldn’t throw them away if they were close by, but they are rather far. Also it forces the Japanese to throw their East Indies fleet at it, instead of using those fighters to secure China or kill the tran in SZ34 or use an extra fighter for Pearl.

I like Darth’s reasoning for the naval unification in SZ30; it does allow for flexibility in countering Africa/India.

Lucifer

@Cmdr:

Egypt can be important if Germany’s left a couple of unprotected tanks there. You’re trading infantry for armor and preventing a blitz of Africa at the same time.

SZ 59, in most cases, I think is a waste of resources. You are throwing away, on average, a destroyer and a carrier for a transport. (Most send a destroyer and a carrier to ensure the transport dies, Japan can easily counter using a battleship to absorb a hit if you get one.) I don’t know who decided 28 IPC in naval units was a good trade for 8 IPC in naval units, especially when England now has to build those same 28 IPC back in England now.

I think, in most games, the best idea is to send the Transport and Submarine from SZ 40 east. (Maybe picking up the infantry from New Zealand on the way.) Send the destroyer and carrier west (with transport if you don’t hit Egypt, without if you do.) The Fighter can go to Pearl or with the carrier depending on if you need it to kill German tanks in Egypt or not.

In three rounds you’ll have brought a submarine, 2 transports, destroyer and carrier to the British fleet, fleshing it out entirely with no added investments and making it a viable fighting force all by itself allowing the British and Americans to split.

Or, using the British fleet alone to work on Germany and sending the Americans off to heckle the Japanese.

Technically u r right, Jennifer, but many games end by the time UK can get the Pac fleet to Europe, WE/Norway.
At least sz 7, that takes 4 rnds. Germany usually closes the med through AE, in rare cases that G don’t
attack AE then it’s probably a good idea to move all UK naval units to the med asap.
In a 10 rnd game u will use the UK pac fleet in Europe for about 6 rnds, that’s nice, and u can save some ipc
on navy, buying ftrs etc, and only a few boats until the fleet is brought back home. Point is that many games ends much
sooner, so it’s hard to say if it’s a good move to save the UK pac fleet rather than sacrificing it in order to slow Jap down.

Jennifer

@Bean:

I don’t know who decided 28 IPC in naval units was a good trade for 8 IPC in naval units, especially when England now has to build those same 28 IPC back in England now.

The reasoning is simple, you can’t wait 5 turns for those units in order to go to Norway. You seem to build a carrier/sub on Round 1 so it’s not even like you’re waiting for those units, is it? It’s an opportunity thing. I wouldn’t throw them away if they were close by, but they are rather far. Also it forces the Japanese to throw their East Indies fleet at it, instead of using those fighters to secure China or kill the tran in SZ34 or use an extra fighter for Pearl.

I like Darth’s reasoning for the naval unification in SZ30; it does allow for flexibility in countering Africa/India.

Well, to be truthful, I built the British fleet up in our game because I need my Pac fleet for the Pac!

In most of my games, I sail my fleet home while focusing on Africa. Then, when unified on UK 4, I move up north to help against Germany there. By then, I have Americans entering Caucasus every round. (Algeria on US 1, Libya on US 2, Egypt on US 3, Trans-Jordan on US 4, Persia on US 5 which is when the UK fleet moves to SZ 6, invasions of Karelia with England and Caucasus with America every turn from then on.)

Not to mention, Algeria and Libya are in England’s pocket since it’s invaded by England first, then America. Also puts direct pressure on Japan not to put ICs in India and FIC.

Sure, Japan gets a transport. And I’m not saying not to hit the sub in SZ 45 with the British fighter and land it in SZ 52, just saying, the SZ 59 transport, while nice, really isn’t the best move in my opinion.

Maybe if you moved everything there, and got good dice on the counter attack. DD/AC/Fig/TRN can be formidable if hit too lightly. But Japan’s got two battleships that they don’t need for Pearl which can be easily used to sink you in SZ 45 without loss.

Funcioneta

I think you should comment something about IC builds.

An India IC needs going for z59 and landing all possible reinforcments at India (thus not attacking Egypt). Also need a IC at Sinkiang plus siberian forces to survive.

Unification fleet is good if you want an Australia IC. Then you should not attack z59.

IC at Safr is good if you cannot send reinforcements to Africa and germans cannot conquer Safr in a couple of turns

All should be purchased on UK 1 … or Colonial Garrison, of course :-D

Jennifer

If KJF starts on UK 2, then I go with the Indian Industrial Complex. If KJF starts on UK 4 then I forgo an industrial complex at all, or I build one in Australia when it’s liberated. (Very rare.)

Reason being, those 4 rounds means England’s already down a lot of cash and needs what it can get to bolster Russia. Since Japan’s now had a few rounds to actually get some Russian land from them before having to come full circle back and protect against America and England.

trihero

I think for these sorts of articles it’s a good idea to give short term goals, such as first make sure you capital doesn’t fall, then make sure your navy won’t die, then make sure Africa doesn’t go down, then make sure the German navy dies, then make sure you land troops into N. Europe every round after that. Something like that. It can be very difficult and time-consuming to go through all the specific details of how to do it, but the overall goal should be mentioned more clearly.

frood

@Bean:

I think for these sorts of articles it’s a good idea to give short term goals, such as first make sure you capital doesn’t fall, then make sure your navy won’t die, then make sure Africa doesn’t go down, then make sure the German navy dies, then make sure you land troops into N. Europe every round after that. Something like that. It can be very difficult and time-consuming to go through all the specific details of how to do it, but the overall goal should be mentioned more clearly.

Agreed. UK1 already depends so heavily on what happened in R1 and G1, that writing about what to do at any point after UK1 is pretty pointless. Is it safe to land in Norway/Karelia/Archangel? What happened in Egypt? Did Germany buy a baltic fleet? Where is the Luftwaffe? Did Germany sink the Z1 TRN?

Also agreed that the UK navy in the Pac is somewhat low-value because it is so far away from the main action, so it can be worth sacrificing some pieces, since otherwise they won’t do anything for you for quite a while.

Z59: I just send a DD - the extra 16 IPCs of an AC is not worth a higher chance of killing the TRN.
Z45: try to kill the Jap sub with your sub
Now Japan has to deal with your DD and sub possibly, so their J1 resources are stretched a little thinner.

Anglo-Egypt: If occupied by one or two German tanks, try to kill the tanks by TRNing units from India. Pull out the AA to Persia. If AE is not possible to re-take, move Per Inf to India and India should stand for J1, assuming the Z59 TRN is dead.

WCan - Leave the Inf there just to help deter a Jap attack.

Purchase - it seems that 3 Ftrs is a good option for UK1, but TRN and ground units may be an option if the Luftwaffe is not in range of Z3/Z4.

Merge remaining Pac fleet in Z30, or move the TRN toward the Atlantic and the other units to between Madagascar and Kenya.

Beyond UK1, you just have to apply your basic strategy to figure out what to do. By UK2 so much can change.

DarthMaximus

I disagree that it is pointless. Yes they are sort of short term goals, but you can usually see out about 3 rounds, so you should be able to setup a good baseline strat and something where you aren’t going to cost yourself the game.

For example, I can open with the same UK 1 every game regardless of what happens on R1 or G1. I can do this b/c I simply assume the worst. And the early worst case for UK is a threaten of Sealion or fleet Unification since that would put London in danger immediately. But this is fairly easy to counter, and I find the counter to that doesn’t really hurt you even if Germany doesn’t threaten that move(s). Thus it is a good open regardless of R1 or G1.

The easiest UK open IMO, is to send the Atlantic fleet to Sz 8 (place any new ships there place new ftrs on UK, unify fleet in Sz 30, and Non-Com all Mid-East troops to Per.

But I didn’t want to write just a two line article. :-)

IMO it is a waste to counter Egy and to mess with Japan (sz 59) but I didn’t want to get too heavy into “what I do” for a basics article or come across as preaching a “this is the only way to open and win…” I more wanted to set up the various scenerios, give some brief ideas to think about, and keep it pretty general b/c you can really set up an article for all three different UK openings:

1) What does the UK do if - Ger buys no navy
2) What does the UK do if - Ger threatens Sealion/Fleet Unification
3) What does the UK do if they go KJF

Pretty much everything UK can do is a variation of one of those 3 scenerios, but I think to try and fit all those in one article is a bit much.

Lucifer

The KJF seems to be a neverending story….
A basic strat article should, imo, not include tech or NA’s. This should be included later.
Same goes for strats that may work better or worse with different rules.
It’s fully possible that KJF works with NA’s, but not with “common” game settings.
Same goes for India IC. You will not be able no keep it, if Jap wants it.
If someone plays with tech on, this will change the game, but only to make more randomness.
General strats have little do with tech or no tech, LL or ads. But NA’s thats a different story.
A strat article should state what game settings is included in the premise of the strat article.

Jennifer, you seem to have KJF and India IC on your mind.

Darth, a good introduction, but already it seems everyone totally disagrees on all details, and also on the general strats.
The caspian sub papers are good enough, although they are very thin. It’s for players who are new to revised.
This is a good attempt to write some serious stuff that might help many players to improve their game, regardless weather
they’re decent or newbs.

I cannot understand that a top player claims that countering AE is not important. And we all know how much or little UK
can bring to AE UK1. So it depends on the situation. You also claim that sz 59 is unimportant. Why??

Sometimes I get the impression that people on this forum play don’t play the same game as I do :?
Some players here are good and some are not so good. I wish I was really good, because it’s fun to play, but winning
is the most funny part. Thats why I try to learn from players that are better than me.
All those discussions about strats and what to buy etc, BB’s rulez ehh??
What rules, what settings, and what game do you guys play???

DarthMaximus

@Lucifer:

I cannot understand that a top player claims that countering AE is not important. And we all know how much or little UK
can bring to AE UK1. So it depends on the situation. You also claim that sz 59 is unimportant. Why??

For Egy, Unimportant might be a bit strong, but I’ve played plenty of games where a counter was impossible due to bid and Ger rolled up on G1, and yet in those games I’ve not necessarily had trouble as the Allies. Thus if Germany takes with only 1-2 arm left over and I leave it, it shouldn’t be a problem since I’ve already dealt with a worst case with them taking with 1-2 inf, 2-3 arm leftover.

IMO it can be bad to throw away 3 UK inf that are just going to be killed on G2. Even if two UK inf survive the counter, Germany counters with 3 inf, 1 rt, bb-shot (maybe a plane), and if 1 inf survives and UK defended trj then Germany can counter both and now UK has ZERO troops left in the Middle East (assuming Japan picks off the last guy on J1 or J2). To counter Egy on UK1 means you essentially concede the ME to the Axis on Rd 2.

For Sz 59, I just think it is a bad trade to trade DD for trn when you can unite in Sz 30 and force Japan to commit captial ships and kill off ftrs or leave you with 1 sub, 2 trns, 1 dd, 1 ac, 1 ftr in the Indian Ocean. Turn two you pull the 3 inf form Aus and if you stacked Per (instead of counter Egy) you have a darn good sized army that can threaten Egy, Per, Ind, and Iea.

Any gains Germany made by blitzing around are quickly wiped out on UK 2 or 3 OR they defend Egy pretty heavy which means they didn’t blitz around b/c they saw on UK 2 you can move your sz 30 fleet to sz 34 (instead of Aus) and pick up 4 inf in Per and counter Egy or Trj or Iea on Rd 2.

It may not work every game but a stack of 4-5 inf in Per and a fleet in Sz 30 can put enough of a scare into Germany where they may not blitz around Afr and in this case you’ve held much of Afr without sacrificing 3 inf and the Middle East. Sometimes the threat of attack is worth more than the attack itself.

I’m sure I’ve made enough players scream when they take Egy with maybe 2 armor left, then I stack Per and move to sz 30 so they blitz a couple ter on G2 but move their arm back to Egy and stack with ~3 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm only to see me pick up 3 more inf in Aus on UK 2. I’ve just contained Afr and all it cost me was Egy for a rd or 2 which Ger gets anyway and another two 1 ipc territories next to Egy. Why waste the 3 inf in the Egy counter when you don’t have to?

EDIT:

I don’t play with Techs or NA’s and it is probably safe to assume most people don’t include those things when talking strat around here unless they delibrately say they use Tech or NA somewhere in their initial post.

Our tournaments and League games are all LHTR, 9 VC, No Tech, No NA, and blind bidding with no restrictions on placement (so 3 inf to Ukr or 3 inf to Lib is in play), common bid ranges are 7-9.

Jennifer

Lucifer,

I only brought up the Indian IC because it was mentioned before my post. For basic England strat, I would never suggest building an Industrial Complex.

Anyway, as for Egypt it’s a compromise. If you can kill some high value German tanks and make landings in Algeria safer, I go for it. If there’s little chance of success, then I do not.

Lucifer

Well Darth, now I see your points more clearly.

Africa is really important for UK, to let G have Afr during several rnds, this helps axis win the game.
To goal to secure Afr is obvious, how to secure Afr is not so obvious, and it’s also obvious that if G got lots of units to AE
G1, then UK have to move units from India/Persia towards AE, or from Algeria and Libya to take AE UK2. Generally I think it’s best to let
US take responsibility for securing Afr. UK needs to help Russia, as much as possible, and as fast as possible.
As for all strats, they don’t work if the player conducts “bad combat” on the small scale.

The sz59 attack I think is important, and to look only at tuv trade is not optimal imo.
UK doesn’t need any DD’s anyway. The only situations where I would not attack sz59, is if G don’t attack AE.
The DD attack at sz59 is clearly done only to slow Jap down a bit. To kill a trans isn’t much, but every little attack can
possibly help, even if the trade in one battle is bad.

I had situations where I did approx. 50 tuv damage to my opponent,
but it was clearly a Pyrrhic victory, I also have done battles and lost well over 50 tuv, but battle helped me win the game.

Jennifer

Lucifer:

What’s more important?

A) Killing the Transport in SZ 59
B) Sending your Fighter to SZ 52 to defend
C) Retaking Egypt
D) Combining the unmolested, undamaged British fleet in SZ 22 on Round 3
E) C&D
F) A&B

Lucifer

@Cmdr:

Lucifer:

What’s more important?

A) Killing the Transport in SZ 59
B) Sending your Fighter to SZ 52 to defend
C) Retaking Egypt
D) Combining the unmolested, undamaged British fleet in SZ 22 on Round 3
E) C&D
F) A&B

As UK I never send ftr to 52.
I always do the 59 attack unless G don’t attack AE G1.
If I can retake AE UK1 with 1 ftr + 3 inf, eventually with bmr, then I do it if BC says above 70% for
1 land unit to survive, if G has 2 tanks or less in AE, I attack AE UK1.
Sz 22? Brazil is not usually an issue in my games…not rnd 3 and neither rnd 10 or 20.
In most of the games I play, the important battles and moves happens before rnd 4-5.
I really don’t see that bringing navy stuff to home waters helps much, it takes too long, and I don’t
need naval protection from rnd 4-5, I need it from UK1-UK3.

Can you use the UK pac navy to stop axis from merging fleets in med?
If so, then I would like to hear some suggestions. My experience is that US must close the med by securing AE, UK
usually can’t do it alone.

Jennifer

British fleet unification in SZ 22 is the Transport/Submarine from SZ 40 and the Carrier, Destroyer from SZ 35. From there you can move it north or back into the Pacific.

It’s not meant to protect Brazil. :P

Lucifer

@Cmdr:

It’s not meant to protect Brazil. :P

I was joking, I should put a smiley behind.

Seriously, I can’t see any good use for the UK pac fleet, other than spending it to slow Jap, even if there’s not much
UK can do alone, New Guinea is only 1 ipc, Borneo is 4, but my experience is that it doesn’t hurt Jap much
to lose Borneo a couple of rnds. Preferably I take it back J1, but Borneo J2 is not too bad either. If
UK takes Borneo then Jap will have an easy way in India at least, so the Borneo attack is not as good as it may
seem. The trans in Australia can be sailed towards Afr. with 2 inf, thats an ok move.
The sub and DD+AC I have no use for, other than stopping Jap from landing 2 more units.

What are you gonna do with the UK home navy until rnd 4-5, when the UK pac fleet is in sz 6?
Nuthin? And buy 10 ftrs instead?

If you go KJF then UK navy can be brought as fodder, I can see that, but then again, KJF will not help you
win games :-P :roll:

Jennifer

Think of it this way, Lucifer.

It’s generally not until Round 4 that England can attack the SZ 5 fleet if Germany puts a Carrier in there anyway. So why not spend those rounds building fighters instead of boats and bring the boats you already have home? Now you have a big airforce, a normal fleet and the ability to make the SZ 5 battle very decisive for you, or force Germany to invest in even more boats to protect against you, thus making Russia’s job that much easier?

Lucifer

Well, if G buy fleet in sz 5 then the UK pac fleet can be used for something useful later.
I don’t see a G AC investment often. Many players, and most of my opponents have moved away from the G baltic navy strat.

To buy ftrs with UK I think is a good strat. I usually buy inf/tank/art, but many decent players buy a ftr each rnd, or
every second rnd with UK.

Jennifer

Except when they know it’s KJF. Then for some reason they go SZ 5 AC + Pearl Uber Heavy. Two moves I rarely see in “normal” games.

Lucifer

@Cmdr:

Except when they know it’s KJF. Then for some reason they go SZ 5 AC + Pearl Uber Heavy. Two moves I rarely see in “normal” games.

Sry, but I can’t really see that G AC have anything to do with KJF. 2-3 or 5 trans G1, thats gonna stop a KJF, at least
until rnd 3-4.
I’m also moving away from pearl, I will only do it for tuv trading, and/or make US buy more navy instead of ground units
US1-US3.
I’m not afraid of what US can to to Jap in pac, I’m much more worried of US in Europe.

As for UK basics, UK usually can attack sz5 before rnd 4-5,
and kill all Baltic navy, even without the UK pac fleet, if not G buys 1 AC, 1 BB, 3 trans, 2 subs?? :lol:

My point is that since most of the games I play end before rnd 10, both the games I win and the games I lose, I really can’t
find much use for the UK pac navy. If your games last 10 rns or more, usually, then you may have good use for the UK navy,
even if this means its idle for some turns.

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