Which Power would you attack the german baltic fleet with? I can’t see you bringing 65 IPC to bear on this fleet before UK2 - at which point there is no longer a german baltic fleet, but a german consolidated fleet in sz7.
Unless you are suggesting an all-airforce purchase by USSR on R1? Or multiple attacks on UK1, US1, and possibly R2?
More details please.
If the UK and US actually ALLOW the German fleet to merge intact, it it there own damn fault.
It is far to easy to prevent ANY chance of a fleet link that are both tactically and stregically beneficial (beyond blocking the fleet link) to the Allies.
@ncscswitch:
If the UK and US actually ALLOW the German fleet to merge intact, it it there own damn fault.
It is far to easy to prevent ANY chance of a fleet link that are both tactically and stregically beneficial (beyond blocking the fleet link) to the Allies.
Assuming an African bid, Germany takes Gibraltar with 1 sub 1 trans 1 btl 1 infantry, and builds carrier at Baltic. (Germany can still take Anglo-Egypt if there was an African bid).
If Allies unite west of Algeria to bottle the German Med fleet, the Med fleet suicides (or nearly suicides) comboed with the W. Europe fighters and kills the whole Allied fleet. If the Allies send a fodder blocker, Germany blows up the fodder blocker with fighters and unites anyways. If the Allies send a couple ships to bottle up the Med, Germany just uses the sub as fodder, or the sub and transport, plus mass fighters.
It is not easy to prevent the Germans from uniting their fleet without losing a LOT of Allied fleet in the process.
But there WILL be more Allied ships built. There won;t be anymore German ships.
And if you have both fleets to blast… one in SZ6, one in SZ12, you can;t use AF for both, and you ARE going to take some heavy loses as Germany, eitehr leaving you without much (if any) fleet left after the battles (and still in different SZ’s so still able to be countered by UK and US AF), or with a lot of empty runways in Germany.
And what IS the economic gain of a merged fleet? Allies are still coming back with a serious fleet, and it will be there almsot immediately. Even a BB is probably on the way and as you hammer the first fleet. You MAY succeed in slowing the Allies for a turn. But you do so AFTER they have already dropped troops in Africa. And you do so at the time when US is still getting their WUS shuck via Canada set up. So the US is BARELY effected.
OK, Germany keeps Norway 1 extra turn. 3 IPC’s gained for usign your fleet and air on OFFENSE against Allied navy on DEFENSE, instead of forcing the Allies to attack you where YOUR fleet is superior and theirs loses much of its punch. To me that is STILL a bad trade.
The mistake is to let Germany dictate the pace of the game. Keep doing what you’re doing to get troops on the ground (maintaining a good defensive position of course). You don’t win with destroyers. You win with ground troops taking territories and holding them. I’ve never seen a destroyer parked on Karelia, but allied infantry sure look good there. That’s why transports make sense early- they beef up your naval presence while simultaneously allowing you to get a steady supply of forces to Europe/ Africa.
In my opinion you philosophically have to almost disregard the Baltic fleet. It’s a sideshow, and plays into Axis’ hands if you freak out trying to figure out how to destroy it. The time will come when you can thrash it. But you shouldn’t have been distracted from the goal up to that point.
Have to agree 88.
The Baltic AC is a DEFENSIVE build by Germany, though one that CAN create some additional OFFESNIVE options.
The dreaded “fleet merge” is a phantom risk in most cases, just like a Sea Lion Scare.
The AC CAN be offensive, if UK and USA make serious mistakes. Otherwise it is a landing platform to extend FIG ranges in Northern Europe, and a means to prevent the early and immediate demise of the Baltic Fleet.
Or if the dice conspire against the allies.
:)
The German AC is no threat in SZ 5. It only becomes a threat when it moves to merge with the southern fleet or if Germany starts putting more boats in the water.
And as a general rule, neither of those happen.
The Med Fleet continues to be used for raiding African income as long as possible, or to boost attacks on Karelia (or as a few players here use it… to go grab UK income around teh India Ocean).
Buying MORE navy as Germany is generally seen as a losing tactic. Russia initially has too many forces, and Japan is too far away initially to provide a serious threat for Germany to divert significant income form land forces. And head to head against UK AND USA in the Atlantic, Germany loses.
can germany build 5trans to invad london on turn two or 4trans and a fighter. or something like this. i no you will suffer greatly on R2 but will it be worth it and possible to take london? the german fleet doesn’t move
Nope, not going to work.
You build 5 TRNs on G1, and UK KNOWS what you are going to try… only one thing you CAN do with that build (assuming they are all in the Baltic to assist with Sea Lion).
I am also going to assume that all AF were landed in Western.
Now lets REALLY go max force for London…
BB and TRN move to SZ13, and will take 1 ART, 1 INF from Algeria to London and add a BB shot
So, the response…
UK builds 10 INF. They may also suicide their BB and TRN to SZ6 to do some damage to your fleet and/or bleed some air cover off your attack
TRNs the ECan ARM to London
US sends FIG and BOM to UK, as well as 2 INF, 1 ART, 1 ARM
So, the attack force is:
6 TRNs loaded with 6 ARM, 6 INF
1 TRN loaded with 1 INF, 1 ART
5 FIGs
1 BOM
To get that force, Germany needs ALL ARM from Western, Germany, Southern and Eastern as well as INF from Germany and Norway.
Germany will have 1 ARM left in Europe (assuming standard R1 open of West Russia/Ukraine) and 11 INF. That assumes NO LOSSES from attacks on G1
BUT… Russia will move again on R2, and will wipe out at least anotehr couple of forces, Germany will be down to almost nothing in Europe once they attempt Sea Lion, with a MASSIVE Russian force moving into Eastern on R3.
So it is an all or nothing shot…
Defensive Force is:
14 INF
2 ART
3 ARM
3 FIG
2 BOM
AA
Running that battle through the sim, with the “take w/ 1 unit” option, because clearing it does you no good, you HAVE to raid the IPC for it to be worth it…
Germany wins 6.2% of the time
And a loss of ALL German units, including AF.
Not very good odds, especially with the West Russia Stack moving into Eastern on R3, and the UK hammering your TRN fleet with 1 BB, 2 TRN, 2 FIG and a BOM, then the US hitting with 1 DST, 2 TRN, up to 3 FIGs, and a BOM (WUS and Hawaii FIGs moved to ECan in US1)
Which is an average of teh entire German fleet being wiped out (in exchange for the US and UK AF and Fleets.
So on G2, Germany builds $35 worth of units to defend with.
On UK2, UK buys 3 TRN, and US2 sails 3 TRN, 1 loaded to London.
Also on UK2, Rome falls to the UK forces coming from India via Indian Fleet.
R3, Russia holds Norway, West Russia, Belo, Ukraine, Eastern and Balkans.
G3, Germany buys 10 more INF, so they have about 25 units total
By R4, Everythign except Berlin has fallen, which falls by **R5 AT THE LATEST
PLEASE, someone play me and build 5 German TRNs on G1!**
Not that it helps, but UK can only place 8 inf.  :-P
Edit:
Actaully 5 inf, 3 arm are a little better defensively then just the 8 inf.
If you want to pose a credible threat to London, I think the Caspian Sub recommendation of 2-3 transports is the way to go. (Caspian Sub Yahoo group; check out paper . . . I think it was 12, maybe.) You can follow with 5 trns next turn (but if you do, you MUST take London).
Note that the paper DOES list contingency plans in case the 2-3 trans build cannot be used to take London, and when and when NOT to build 5 trns on G2. It is not a paper that just says “2-3 trns G1, 5 trns G2, you win! lolz”. Read the whole thing, understand it, then try it out.
I think 2-3 trns is too chancy, giving the Allies a chance to end the game with a lucky UK1 air attack, so I’m analyzing Rocket tech these days.
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5 trns is definitely out because of Allied response: UK build 5 inf 3 tank, move tank from W Can to London, US moves in sacrificial transports (which the Germans can destroy) of 2 inf 1 art 1 tnk), plus flies fighter and bomber to London. Germany COULD still pull it off, but a USSR move of 1-2 fighters from Moscow to London seals the deal. (That’s one of the reasons that I park fighters at Moscow).
Of course, Germany can respond to Moscow-parked fighters with a trns at Southern Europe, which makes the African/Ukraine/Caucasus game far more interesting with mid-game mass infantry moves. You can’t really use a German transport until G3 . . . the plan is G1 mass infantry and artillery or carrier, G2 infantry to E. Eur and transport build in S. Eur, plus assorted tanks, G3 E. Eur infantry to Ukraine, Berlin tanks to Ukraine, and 2 Med trns to Ukraine for big defensive force, G4 attack Caucasus with all. There’s a plan to hit on G5 and G6 as well . . . but I won’t go into that for now.
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“The Baltic AC is a DEFENSIVE build by Germany, though one that CAN create some additional OFFESNIVE options.”
Yeah, the big ones are: G1 AC in Baltic gives German fighters that are NOT at W. Europe the flexibility to land on the AC parked at the sea zone west of Western Europe in noncom. This makes the G2 naval threat far more flexible. The other is that a G1 AC gives German fighters range to hit London, which is something else the Allies have to take into account for their build. Basically, the AC lets you pull fighter shenanigans.
You got it Paint… and with an average of 5 FIGs to play with, that is a LOT of shenanigans!
