L24 OOB Gamerman01 (Axis) vs FlyingBadger (Allies+51) #1

FlyingBadger

@gamerman01 Scramble from Truk?

gamerman01

Yes, all

Won’t be available for a couple of hours if needed

FlyingBadger

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Americans round 8

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition

Game History

Round: 8

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 1 carrier, 2 destroyers, 2 fighters, 1 submarine and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        1 tactical_bomber moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from 26 Sea Zone to 10 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 3 infantry, 2 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports moved from 26 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from 33 Sea Zone to Caroline Islands
        2 fighters moved from Western United States to 10 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Hawaiian Islands to 10 Sea Zone
        2 carriers, 1 destroyer and 2 submarines moved from 10 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to 87 Sea Zone

    Combat - Americans
        Japanese scrambles 3 units out of Caroline Islands to defend against the attack in 33 Sea Zone
        Battle in 87 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 bomber
            Germans defend with 1 transport
                1 transport owned by the Germans lost in 87 Sea Zone
            Americans win with 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for Germans: 1 transport
        Battle in 10 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 destroyer and 4 fighters
            Japanese defend with 1 submarine
                Americans roll dice for 1 destroyer and 4 fighters in 10 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/5 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 10 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Japanese lost in 10 Sea Zone
            Americans win, taking 10 Sea Zone from Neutral with 1 destroyer and 4 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 submarine
        Battle in 33 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 2 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports
            Japanese defend with 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers, 6 fighters, 6 submarines, 3 tactical_bombers and 1 transport
                Americans roll dice for 2 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 6/14 hits, 7.17 expected hits

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -2.17
Japanese regular : -0.17

Savegame

FlyingBadger

@gamerman01 US subs missed (probably still using those dodgy early Mk14 torpedoes).

6 hits.

gamerman01

8 hours! I’m sorry, I forgot we were in the middle of a battle and was busy training today,

Damage 2 carriers, 1 battleship, lose 3 subs

FlyingBadger

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Americans round 8

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition

Game History

Round: 8

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 1 carrier, 2 destroyers, 2 fighters, 1 submarine and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        1 tactical_bomber moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from 26 Sea Zone to 10 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 3 infantry, 2 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports moved from 26 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from 33 Sea Zone to Caroline Islands
        2 fighters moved from Western United States to 10 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Hawaiian Islands to 10 Sea Zone
        2 carriers, 1 destroyer and 2 submarines moved from 10 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to 87 Sea Zone

    Combat - Americans
        Japanese scrambles 3 units out of Caroline Islands to defend against the attack in 33 Sea Zone
        Battle in 87 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 bomber
            Germans defend with 1 transport
                1 transport owned by the Germans lost in 87 Sea Zone
            Americans win with 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for Germans: 1 transport
        Battle in 10 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 destroyer and 4 fighters
            Japanese defend with 1 submarine
                Americans roll dice for 1 destroyer and 4 fighters in 10 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/5 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 10 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Japanese lost in 10 Sea Zone
            Americans win, taking 10 Sea Zone from Neutral with 1 destroyer and 4 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 submarine
        Battle in 33 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 2 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports
            Japanese defend with 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers, 6 fighters, 6 submarines, 3 tactical_bombers and 1 transport
                Americans roll dice for 2 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 6/14 hits, 7.17 expected hits
            Units damaged: 2 carriers owned by the Japanese and 1 battleship owned by the Japanese
                Japanese roll dice for 6 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/6 hits, 1.00 expected hits
            Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Americans
                Japanese roll dice for 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers, 6 fighters, 3 tactical_bombers and 1 transport in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 10/19 hits, 9.50 expected hits
                5 carriers owned by the Americans lost in 33 Sea Zone
                3 submarines owned by the Japanese lost in 33 Sea Zone
                Americans roll dice for 2 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -1.83
Japanese regular : 0.33

Savegame

FlyingBadger

8 hours! I’m sorry, I forgot we were in the middle of a battle and was busy training today,

Damage 2 carriers, 1 battleship, lose 3 subs

No problem.

1 US sub hit, casualty?

gamerman01

Triple A does this wrong. I don’t have to choose casualties until all your units have rolled, however, since you just have 2 subs and it’s only 1 hit and I have lots of units, I don’t mind saying I’ll lose 1 sub

gamerman01

It’s the middle of the night for me and I just came to give you a casualty choice, but I think next it’s going to roll my planes only and make you choose casualties. You wouldn’t have to choose any until you also see my ships roll.

Therefore, if you change your mind on what you take, after seeing the “2nd” ship roll, you may change your “planes defense” casualty choice of the 1st roll after seeing the 2nd. This is why I often roll mixed fleet battles on the forum, but it’s OK, you’ll just possibly have some inconveniences

gamerman01

LOL like I said it’s late.

No, next will be the “rest” of your attack roll (Triple A should have done it all at once before demanding casualties, while tracking separately which are sub hits),
so you will need another casualty choice. I’d give it in advance, but I can’t because I may start taking a mix of planes and ships depending on your number of hits.

If you only hit twice, LOL, I’ll lose 2 subs

FlyingBadger

@gamerman01 said in L24 OOB Gamerman01 (Axis) vs FlyingBadger (Allies+51) #1:

Therefore, if you change your mind on what you take, after seeing the “2nd” ship roll, you may change your “planes defense” casualty choice of the 1st roll after seeing the 2nd. This is why I often roll mixed fleet battles on the forum, but it’s OK, you’ll just possibly have some inconveniences

Interesting. I’ve never played the board game, so didn’t know that TripleA does the casualty selection for battles wrong (I assume it is the handling of subs not being able to hit planes which causes the difference).

Like you say, the only way to avoid this is to use dicebot and do the combat on the forum topic. I have played 50+ league games and this is the first time this has been raised, I guess most of us just don’t do mixed naval combat correctly!

FlyingBadger

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Americans round 8

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition

Game History

Round: 8

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 1 carrier, 2 destroyers, 2 fighters, 1 submarine and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        1 tactical_bomber moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from 26 Sea Zone to 10 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 3 infantry, 2 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports moved from 26 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from 33 Sea Zone to Caroline Islands
        2 fighters moved from Western United States to 10 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Hawaiian Islands to 10 Sea Zone
        2 carriers, 1 destroyer and 2 submarines moved from 10 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to 87 Sea Zone

    Combat - Americans
        Japanese scrambles 3 units out of Caroline Islands to defend against the attack in 33 Sea Zone
        Battle in 87 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 bomber
            Germans defend with 1 transport
                1 transport owned by the Germans lost in 87 Sea Zone
            Americans win with 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for Germans: 1 transport
        Battle in 10 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 destroyer and 4 fighters
            Japanese defend with 1 submarine
                Americans roll dice for 1 destroyer and 4 fighters in 10 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/5 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 10 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Japanese lost in 10 Sea Zone
            Americans win, taking 10 Sea Zone from Neutral with 1 destroyer and 4 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 submarine
        Battle in 33 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 2 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports
            Japanese defend with 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers, 6 fighters, 6 submarines, 3 tactical_bombers and 1 transport
                Americans roll dice for 2 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 6/14 hits, 7.17 expected hits
            Units damaged: 2 carriers owned by the Japanese and 1 battleship owned by the Japanese
                Japanese roll dice for 6 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/6 hits, 1.00 expected hits
            Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Americans
                Japanese roll dice for 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers, 6 fighters, 3 tactical_bombers and 1 transport in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 10/19 hits, 9.50 expected hits
                5 carriers owned by the Americans lost in 33 Sea Zone
                3 submarines owned by the Japanese lost in 33 Sea Zone
                Americans roll dice for 2 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports in 33 Sea Zone, round 3 : 7/14 hits, 7.17 expected hits

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -2.00
Japanese regular : 0.33

Savegame

FlyingBadger

@gamerman01
7 hits from the rest of the attack. Casualties?

gamerman01

@FlyingBadger said in L24 OOB Gamerman01 (Axis) vs FlyingBadger (Allies+51) #1:

Like you say, the only way to avoid this is to use dicebot and do the combat on the forum topic. I have played 50+ league games and this is the first time this has been raised, I guess most of us just don’t do mixed naval combat correctly!

Wow, you’re right, I keep hearing this with my new opponents! This is not just a technicality, if you think about it I’m sure you’ll realize it can make a significant difference in several types of circumstances.

Page 19 in the Europe manual details how to conduct combat.

Step 1 you set up the battle on the battle strip

Step 2 Submarine surprise strike or submerge
However, a destroyer prevents subs special capabilities so subs cannot surprise strike or submerge, so this step is skipped when the enemy destroyer is present

Step 3 All other attacking units fire. If step 2 didn’t apply because there was a destroyer, then all attacking units includes subs, all units roll together. But sub hits need to be distinguished so the attacker doesn’t choose plane casualties for sub hits
Defender chooses casualties. As many hits as can be assigned must be assigned.

Step 4 Defending units fire
As many hits as can be assigned must be assigned. If there is no destroyer, planes can’t hit subs so planes rolls need to be distinguished from ships

The TripleA programmers made sure surprise strike casualties were chosen before the rest of the roll, and made sure planes and subs weren’t hitting each other when there aren’t destroyers.

However, they left two holes/errors.

When the enemy has a destroyer, Triple A still requires casualty choices for sub hits, but the enemy doesn’t have to choose those casualties until seeing the entire roll (no surprise strike, no step 2, no separate casualty choice)
When YOU have no destroyer, Triple A requires your opponent to choose casualties after only seeing planes hits, but the opponent is supposed to see the entire roll before choosing anything.

In other words, the only time a player has to choose casualties two different times in a single round of combat is when enemy subs have surprise strike capability and those subs score at least 1 hit

Have fun rolling on the forum in the future ;)
Understanding this rule will change the game a bit for you and your opponents who didn’t realize!

gamerman01

I am enjoying good dice so far, but must not get lazy!

I said 1 sub before, so 7 more hits,

2 subs (so all subs are sunk now)
3 destroyers
2 tactical bombers

gamerman01

Wait a second…

gamerman01

I can damage the undamaged carrier I guess

So damage the carrier instead of 1 tac if I’m not too late, don’t worry about it if I was too late

FlyingBadger

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Americans round 8

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition

Game History

Round: 8

    Purchase Units - Americans
        Americans buy 1 carrier, 2 destroyers, 2 fighters, 1 submarine and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; 

    Combat Move - Americans
        1 tactical_bomber moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from 26 Sea Zone to 10 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Hawaiian Islands to 26 Sea Zone
        1 artillery, 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 3 infantry, 2 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports moved from 26 Sea Zone to 33 Sea Zone
        1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from 33 Sea Zone to Caroline Islands
        2 fighters moved from Western United States to 10 Sea Zone
        1 fighter moved from Hawaiian Islands to 10 Sea Zone
        2 carriers, 1 destroyer and 2 submarines moved from 10 Sea Zone to 26 Sea Zone
        1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to 87 Sea Zone

    Combat - Americans
        Japanese scrambles 3 units out of Caroline Islands to defend against the attack in 33 Sea Zone
        Battle in 87 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 bomber
            Germans defend with 1 transport
                1 transport owned by the Germans lost in 87 Sea Zone
            Americans win with 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
            Casualties for Germans: 1 transport
        Battle in 10 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 destroyer and 4 fighters
            Japanese defend with 1 submarine
                Americans roll dice for 1 destroyer and 4 fighters in 10 Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/5 hits, 2.33 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 submarine in 10 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits
                1 submarine owned by the Japanese lost in 10 Sea Zone
            Americans win, taking 10 Sea Zone from Neutral with 1 destroyer and 4 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 6
            Casualties for Japanese: 1 submarine
        Battle in 33 Sea Zone
            Americans attack with 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 2 submarines, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports
            Japanese defend with 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers, 6 fighters, 6 submarines, 3 tactical_bombers and 1 transport
                Americans roll dice for 2 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 5 carriers, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 6/14 hits, 7.17 expected hits
            Units damaged: 2 carriers owned by the Japanese and 1 battleship owned by the Japanese
                Japanese roll dice for 6 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/6 hits, 1.00 expected hits
            Units damaged: 1 battleship owned by the Americans
                Japanese roll dice for 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers, 6 fighters, 3 tactical_bombers and 1 transport in 33 Sea Zone, round 2 : 10/19 hits, 9.50 expected hits
                5 carriers owned by the Americans lost in 33 Sea Zone
                3 submarines owned by the Japanese lost in 33 Sea Zone
                Americans roll dice for 2 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 3 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits
                Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 1 destroyer, 9 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports in 33 Sea Zone, round 3 : 7/14 hits, 7.17 expected hits
            Units damaged: 1 carrier owned by the Japanese
                Japanese roll dice for 3 submarines in 33 Sea Zone, round 3 : 0/3 hits, 0.50 expected hits
                Japanese roll dice for 1 battleship, 3 carriers, 2 cruisers, 4 destroyers, 6 fighters, 3 tactical_bombers and 1 transport in 33 Sea Zone, round 3 : 10/19 hits, 9.50 expected hits
                2 submarines owned by the Americans, 1 destroyer owned by the Americans and 7 fighters owned by the Americans lost in 33 Sea Zone
                1 tactical_bomber owned by the Japanese, 3 destroyers owned by the Japanese and 3 submarines owned by the Japanese lost in 33 Sea Zone
                Americans roll dice for 1 battleship, 2 cruisers, 2 fighters, 1 tactical_bomber and 2 transports in 33 Sea Zone, round 4 : 3/6 hits, 3.33 expected hits

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -2.33
Japanese regular : 0.33

Savegame

FlyingBadger

@gamerman01 No subs for either side now…

FlyingBadger

Understanding this rule will change the game a bit for you and your opponents who didn’t realize!

Yes, I’ll need to think on this, and maybe forewarn opponents that I would want those kinds of naval battles done differently, as most will probably go with the ‘normal’ but incorrect way.

L24 OOB Gamerman01 (Axis) vs FlyingBadger (Allies+51) #1

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Americans round 8

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Americans round 8

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Americans round 8

TripleA Manual Gamesave Post: Americans round 8

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