To all you Pro-Israeli supporters here

Yanny, don’t entice me! What makes that land belong to the palestinians?

I support israel, you know why? Because the land is israel’s for many reasons.
I have written this before:
"The land is truly israel’s. you see, when the hebrews left egypt and found israel, they killed everyone who was there in their way. Therefore the oldest living race that the land of israel belongs to is the (drumroll) israelis. The jews in israel were promised a state after WWI, and didn’t get it. Then after WWII, the jews in europe wanted a land to call their own, and so Israel was finally made a state (on paper.) The land was at least, if not more the israeli’s than the Arabs (now called “palestinians”) that lived there. They were offered a good amount of land for their own state, about the same amount. They didn’t come to some conference or something (I cannot remember) and so the Israelis had sole bargaining rights and their state was made. Then invasion, after invasion failed. If Canada invaded America every decade or so, wouldn’t you want some buffer zone to separate you. You see, the victorious israelis wanted exactly that, and today, the now called “palestinians” want their state there.

I support a palestinian state. I don’t support a state that uses its powers to then grab for more land. Arafat was offered 95% of everything he wanted 2 years ago, and he declined, and the new wave of violence occurred. How is this israel’s fault? The palestinians want the whole thing. "

“The land is truly israel’s. you see, when the hebrews left egypt and found israel, they killed everyone who was there in their way. Therefore the oldest living race that the land of israel belongs to is the (drumroll) israelis.”

Yes the hebrews did leave Egypt, conquered the Caananites, and made a state 1250BC (or sometime close to that.) You see, the jews are the oldest living nationality of the area, so it should be there’s.

"The jews in israel were promised a state after WWI, and didn’t get it. Then after WWII, the jews in europe wanted a land to call their own, and so Israel was finally made a state (on paper.) "

I forget the exact names of the resolutions i cannot remember, but initially, the israeli state was supposed to be many times larger. This never happened, but the israelis weren’t the only ones living in the area anymore either. They deserved a portion of the land though. So the UN wants to make both an israeli and palestinian state. Guess who doesn’t decided to cut any deal for the distrubution of the land? The arabs. They chose war so there would be NO israeli state.

"The land was at least, if not more the israeli’s than the Arabs (now called “palestinians”) that lived there. They were offered a good amount of land for their own state, about the same amount. They didn’t come to some conference or something (I cannot remember) and so the Israelis had sole bargaining rights and their state was made. Then invasion, after invasion failed. "

Basically what i just said.

Then the 6 day war happened…instigated by the arabs, and lost by them too. Now they are crying about it (well, not Egypt.) God forbid there are spoils of war…tiny tracks of land occupied to prevent attacks from artillary pieces and rockets.

"…today, the now called “palestinians” want their state there. "

Here is a huge problem. giving just the land lost in 67 alone will solve nothin Yanny. They attacked when they already had that land (well jordan had it.) Then they will want what they were offered in 47 (and refused.) Yanny, they refuse any zionist state. Now, “Zionism” has become a bad word.

"I don’t support a state that uses its powers to then grab for more land. Arafat was offered 95% of everything he wanted 2 years ago, and he declined, and the new wave of violence occurred. How is this israel’s fault? The palestinians want the whole thing. "

Arafat was offered land in exchange for the land he didn’t get. 1,000,000 “palestinians” live in Israel and are citizens, so how are 200,000 in settlements a larger problem.

I was duped by leftist propaganda saying that Ariel Sharon started the intifada. He didn’t. He never entered any mosque, god forbid he visits the western wall. The 1,000 guards? Muslims there had rocks piled up, poised to be thrown upon him (intelligence knew of this.) As the president elect, he was to be protected. The PA even gave him permission!!! Two men who worked fo rthe PA even admitted that demonstrations and violence were planned before september 2000. And guess what, before the temple mount incident, a shooting, a car bomb, and i forget what else happened. The second intifada already began.

So I ask you. How do you justify palestinian violence? violence started ebcause they refuse to make peace? violence staretd because they kill innocent people and cabinent members? Violence only icnreased by the building of advanced rockets and explosives (though the Qasaam rocket is hardly advanced.)

I am pro Israel, however I do see where you are comming from. Both sides are both wrong about the way they do certain things in this conflict!!! I know this will piss of some people what I’m about to say, but one of the things that I like about Israel is that its a democracy!!! And with what the jews suffered during the nazi era does anybody have the right to tell the Jews how to defend themselves. Yes, Israel needs to call off this attack. Right now!!! But the suciude bombers need to stop their attacks as well. Rewarding terrorism with giving them a country with out bringing the terrorist leaders to justice is WRONG!!!
And certain Israel commanders must also be brought to court and answer for their crimes as well. Not letting supplies to the Palestinians is a war crime as well!!!
I also support a Palestinian state. However it should be a democracy, not under a Arfat Dictatorship!!! It also must not be a Base for future attacks on Israel.

oh yannay.

"Israel of old was conquered. Whiped out. The Palestinians were living in their homes when the Israelis came. They were kicked out of their homes when there was no more space for Israelis. "

There NEVER was a palestinain state! ever! it was the ottoman empire! Therefore, we have to rely on what the UN decided…that there should be an israeli state. What’s the past is in the past. i only bring up the point that israelis lived in israel for 3500 years to disprove the point that “the palestinains werekciked off their land.”

they weren’t…plain and simple. it wasn’t theirs at first, and their resistance to an israeli state is the reason they are not citizens there currently, though 1,000,000 are.

How do you condone violence which is supported by 85 % of the people their? People in refugee camps help make the bobms and hide the people behind terror. many are caught in the corssfie, and even some singled out.

for those being brainwashed by the “Truth”:

PALISTINIAN GOEBBELS JENIN LIE EXPOSED!!!
by Troot Tell her • Tuesday April 16, 2002 at 09:09 AM

As the Israelis were busy hosing pools of blood off the streets after the latest murder-suicide bombing at Jerusalem’s Machane Yehuda market, the Palestinian propaganda machine was busy churning out yet another Big Lie: the “massacre of Jenin.”

Palestinian mouthpieces claim that the Israeli military killed as many as 500 civilians in Jenin, a stronghold of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. When the Israelis cleared the booby traps and allowed Western media into the city on Monday, the reality turned to be completely different: difficult door-to-door infantry fight; 23 Israeli soldiers fallen in battle; dozens of terrorists killed. No massacre.

When Israeli troops surrounded Jenin, it was widely reported by the Western and Arab media that the local terrorist commanders swore to fight them to the death. Arafat, holed up in Ramallah but still pushing for more violence, had called for a “million martyrs” to march to Jerusalem — and Jenin looked like a good place to start.

There were important assets to be protected in the refugee camp. Several dozen chemical labs where explosives for suicide-bomber belts and Kassam rockets were being manufactured, and arsenals of machine guns and anti-tank weapons, and a cadre of would-be suicide bombers. Trapped.

The fierce fighting went on for days in the small, winding alleys of the town and in the Jenin refugee camp that Arafat did not even think to eliminate despite years of his rule. Many houses were booby trapped by the terrorists who hoped to blow Israelis to smithereens. The IDF repeatedly ceased fire and demanded that all civilians leave the area, but the top Palestinian terrorists, true to form, were using them as human shields.

If this action had taken place in Afghanistan, U.S. troops would have called in the “vitamin B”: B-1, B-2 and B-52 bombers. If it had happened in Chechnya, the Russian generals would have called in artillery and flattened Jenin, just as they did Grozny. Israeli tanks were there, and they could have shot straight into town and the refugee camp. Instead, Israelis fought on foot, placing themselves at risk while trying to protect Palestinian lives. One of the fighters, reportedly a young boy, detonated a booby trap in a building already taken by the Israeli reservists, and 13 were killed on the spot.

After the city fell, 1,000 Palestinian fighters surrendered. In any other place, in any other war, there would be no one left to surrender. The air force, rockets, and artillery would have done the job. The Israeli Army is putting the number of Palestinians killed in a five-day battle at about 200, while 30 Israeli soldiers were killed. While crying foul in English, the Palestinian and Arab media are praising the “martyrs” in Arabic, and the Saudi TV has raised millions in a Jerry Lewis style telethon to pay off the families.

The Jenin “massacre” that never was is yet another Big Lie in the Palestinian PR campaign, a campaign that for its persistence and audacity would have made Joseph Goebbels, Adolph Hitler’s propaganda chief, proud. And with good reason. Goebbels’s legacy lives today — from Damascus to Ramallah to Cairo. According to a prominent Egyptian writer, the Egyptian press ministry was set up in the early 1950s by the East Germans who learned the trade under Stalin, but before that, under Hitler and Goebbels. And Communist archives in Moscow demonstrate that many Palestinian leaders were trained at the Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow and KGB camps in the Crimea, both temples of Soviet propaganda and subversion.

One of Goebbels’s contributions to the world of “black” PR was the concept of the Big Lie — repeating something so loudly and persistently that people begin to believe it. Yasser Arafat is fond of blaming Israelis for using “uranium” shells against Palestinians, implying radioactive damage. The Egyptian propaganda machine made up the “immoral” Israeli chewing gum, purported to drive up the libidos of Egyptian women. President Bashar Assad of Syria accused Israel at the recent Arab League Summit of killing “thousands of Palestinians a day.” His long-time defense minister, Mustafa Tlas is getting into show business: He wrote a book called The Matsa of Zion, and is now producing a movie in Egypt that accuses Jews of using the blood of a Christian priest for baking Passover matzah breads. The Saudi government-owned newspaper recently also ran a story alleging that Jews use baby blood for another traditional food, the triangular cookies known as Hamentashen, baked for the holiday of Purim. It is no surprise, therefore, that Hitler’s Mein Kampf is selling briskly on the Palestinian street.

Other people at other times have used the Big Lie to dehumanize their targets. The Soviet KGB planted rumors that the CIA manufactured AIDS. Louis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam has said repeatedly that Jewish doctors infected black babies with AIDS. And the grand wizard himself, Goebbels, used the Big Lie to poison the image of Germany’s Jews so successfully that when the Nazis began rounding the Jews up to ship them to the death camps, fellow Germans or other Europeans cheered and helped in the process.

The truth is, Arafat’s PR foot soldiers are trying to use Jenin as a sort of “instant replay” of the tragedy in the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps. Twenty years ago, a Lebanese militia killed Palestinians in revenge for the murder of President Bashir Jemayel of Lebanon, but the Palestinians and their fellow travelers blamed Sharon for the massacre. In 2002 a Belgian court refused to hear a case against Sharon brought by families of the Sabra and Shatilla victims.

Yasser Arafat’s strategy is to turn Sharon into a war criminal, and to turn the West against Israel. He is using Slobodan Milosevic as a model. Arafat wants to preside over his sheikhdom of terror from behind a human shield of international observers. Then Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, and the Al Aqsa brigades would be free to continue killing Israelis while Arafat himself could issue periodic denunciations (much like the one he issued Saturday when pressured by Secretary of State Colin Powell), and maintain (im)plausible deniability.

To achieve this, Arafat needs the world to ignore the mountains of documented evidence connecting him beyond reasonable doubt with the terror campaigns of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Tanzim, and Al Aqsa. He needs the U.S. government and the Western media to shut their eyes to his close links with Iran and Iraq. He needs Powell not to look at the Israeli streets where the real massacres are taking place: in Netanya, Haifa, and Jerusalem.

This is why Arafat invented the “Jenin massacre” — a story that never was. Why the Arab and European media hastily reported it is another question.

There is no mass burrials and killings in Jenin. The leftist are lying to you- based on no evidence, the world’s media made a larger story out of jenin (besides in america, where the story wasn’t loud enough.) “reports” of mass burrials and killings are false, but report a lie enough, and people will think its true.

This is a very heated discussion!

The only comment i have is, why do we( the western hemisphere) care? Let them settle their porblems themselves.

Before 9/11, did anyone care that afghani women couldnt go to school?

There is conflict all over the World. Brutal things happening to innocent people everywhere. Why does this Conflict warrant so much attention?

I don’t want to sound like a bleeding heart liberial, because I’m not one, but i think we should care. Sooner or later their problems will be ours. The conflict between the Israelies and Palestinians has to end. Good people are dying. I don’t know how to fix the middle east but we got to try something!!!

as long as you want to secure oil from the middle east, israel is a factor.

"The only comment i have is, why do we( the western hemisphere) care? Let them settle their porblems themselves.

Before 9/11, did anyone care that afghani women couldnt go to school?"

In fact i learnt of the taliban one and a half years ago and i hated everything the stood for. I hate that the news doesn’t like talking about the millions who die in
Africa. I guess they are not flavor of the month.

Yanny, you prove my point. Where is the proof of mass killings and burrials? Where’s the beef? I have seen no pictures proving anything “eye whitnesses” were seeing. well guess what, israeli eye whitnesses say differently.

The truth is jenin is (or was) a terrorist center. documents were seized, and explosive manufacturing destroyed. IDF soldiers have gone overboard no doubt, they must be paranoid and hateful. but does that mean their are organized mass killings? i doubt. The holocaust killed the jews, i dobut they would want to emulate it.

Innocent people were caught in the crossfire…some wanted to be. some want the terrorism and the death of zionism. they openly say so. so how “innocent” were a lot of people?

killing is by no means righteous, but it is the palestinians feeding the flame. they didn’t make peace, they support and help terror, and they have “non-violent” protests with rock throwing and gun shots.

they started the second intifada.

"The answer is of course not. Until Israel unrestricts the media, we will never know. "

no smart general wants the media videotaping what their army is doing. good example is vietnam. How about afghanistan? how much video footage did you see of operation anaconda? very very little. you know why? the US government has learnt from their former mistakes and no longer lets the media broadcast it to the world what the US troops are doing. it is called secrecy.

something might of happened in jenin…but most probably not.

A guy at another forum i go to sometimes ranted and said this:

"“Lordie, look a-here!” the prevailing notion goes. “These people in those refugee camps can’t go back to their HOMES! And what’s worse, they’ve got no homes anywhere else to go to!”

The most outrageous UNASKED question on earth has got to be “What in the hell are these people doing in refugee camps half a century later?”

History has always made refugees, as fire has always made smoke. And in every other case – 100 percent of the time since history began – refugees have moved on as quickly as possible to other countries willing and able to absorb them. And the overwhelming majority of those resettled refugees thereupon live happily ever after.

My four grandparents came to America as refugees from Czarist Russia. They wouldn’t have invoked any “right of return” if the Russian Embassy had offered to deliver it along with a million dollars. They sank roots and became ground-kissingly grateful Americans.

Their relatives and others from their villages were absorbed by Canada, South Africa, Holland, Finland, Norway and two dozen other countries, most of which had zero in common with them religiously, culturally, linguistically, gastronomically, athletically or in any other way.

History goes back a long way, so let’s jump straightaway to just a slim few examples of modern-day refugees who became stateless and homeless about the same time as the Palestinians.

In 1947, one year before the state of Israel won its war of independence, thereby generating “Palestinian refugees,” Britain surrendered the Indian subcontinent to its own independence, resulting in today’s Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan.

Tens of millions – Do you hear me? TENS OF MILLIONS – of Moslems living in India became refugees in Pakistan, and tens of millions of Hindus living in Pakistan became refugees in India.

After World War II, Poland was literally forced to “move over.” (Imagine a whole country moving over the way we all do to make room for somebody on a bus.) The Soviet Union took the entire eastern third of Poland and, in turn, gave Poland the entire eastern third of Germany.

Millions of Poles had to move west and took the place of millions of Germans, who had to move even farther west.

Has history ever even once heard the cry of “right of return” in either Hindi, Urdu, Polish or German? I don’t think so. Refugees have always made out better turning to their new homes and working than turning to their old ones and cursing.

The Jews of Europe whom Hitler failed to kill became grateful refugees in at least three dozen different countries.

Israel claims the Palestinians (who were “Arabs” then) fled in 1948 during the war because their leaders urged them to “get out of the way. Our armies will chase the Jews into the sea and you will then have your homes and their homes, too.”

The Arabs deny this vehemently, though the Israelis claim to have a recording of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem making that pronouncement. I have first-hand reason to believe the Israeli claim (friends who were there and heard the Arab broadcasts), but nothing I advance in this article depends upon where truth lies in that particular argument.

Israel accorded those Arabs who remained in Israel citizenship with every right of Jewish Israelis except one. The Arab Israelis were not allowed to serve in the armed forces. Israel didn’t feel it proper to ask them to fight other Arabs.

Meanwhile, what was happening to the Jews in Arab countries after Israel won its war of independence? The Jewish communities, once large and thriving in Egypt, Iraq, Syria and Yemen, feared the volcanic hatred against Israel and the Jews that was foaming over their homelands.

Almost all wanted to get out and go to the new Jewish state. They were allowed to leave only after handing over all of their wealth and property.

Refugees of too many nations have been pushed out of or fled from oppressive regimes with no place to go, no possibility of return and not so much as a sympathetic whimper from a watching world. Instead of screaming “Justice for the Palestinian refugees!” the world SHOULD be screaming, “Shame on all who have kept the Palestinian refugees in unnecessary misery for 50 years for the shabbiest of political reasons.”

Consider, please, the Hungarian refugees in 1956 and 1957. There was a foreign occupier in Hungary – the Soviet Union. There was an “intifada,” the famous Hungarian Revolution of Oct. 23, 1956. There was a brutal military repression of the Hungarian rebellion.

Those who view Israel’s campaign in Jenin and elsewhere on the West Bank as excessive should reflect upon the 2,000 tanks and 200,000 Soviet troops who swarmed over every inch of Hungary and killed 35,000 Hungarian “martyrs.”

Unlike the case of the Palestinians, who were always free to go anywhere, the Hungarians were never able to leave their communist prison. During the early days of their doomed uprising, however, the Iron Curtain was torn down and over the next four months over 200,000 Hungarian refugees fled through Austria to the west seeking freedom and resettlement.

Study the contrast. There are 22 Arab countries that could have absorbed the Palestinian refugees and made them feel at H home – religiously, linguistically, culturally, etc. Except for religion (Roman Catholic), there is no other country in the world remotely like Hungary!

A fussbudget might say, “Ah, the Finnish language is related to Hungarian.” Nice try. Those two languages are GRAMMATICALLY equally idiosyncratic, but there aren’t five important words similar in the two languages. There is NO OTHER COUNTRY in the world where a Hungarian could feel at home. There are, again, 22 countries where Palestinians could feel at home.

Nonetheless, in the case of the Hungarians, the absorption process began. Hungarians fanned out across the world to America, Canada, Sweden, Norway, Germany, Mexico, Brazil, Peru – you name it. And what became of them?

They may have wasted some little bit of time shaking fists at the Soviets, but, judging from their accomplishments, they spent most of their time accommodating, assimilating, learning, working, building new lives and – in the case of George Soros – becoming one of the richest people in the world.

Don’t blame the Palestinian refugees themselves for not measuring up to the flexibility and success of every single other refugee outpouring in history.

Rather than assist these homeless people to go to accepting havens of absorption AS EVERY OTHER REFUGEE GROUP IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD HAS DONE, their Arab masters cynically concentrated them in squalid, odoriferous camps – whenever possible, on the main road between the airport and the capital or somewhere else where foreign visitors could see them and recoil from their squalor.

If the world wants to continue to lament that “These Palestinian refugees can’t go back to their HOMES!” the world is free to do so. Doesn’t the world owe us, however, some slight explanation as to why their anguish at dispossession is limited to Palestinian refugees alone?

Ignorance is the sperm of apathy. If you don’t know, you can’t care. The VIP lounge of refugees whose plights trigger perpetual global anguish is apparently quite small.

Only the Palestinians are admitted."

"

I think it is a good alternate point of view…though it doesn’t conflict with mine :smile: it is biased, don’t get me wrong, but i think it makes good points.

Ignorance and arrogance is a bad combination to possess.

But the outcome can be highly entertaining…
:smile:

"crying families, dead children, homes destroyed, and soldier brutality. "

How about the suicide bombers? I cannot justify every action the IDF has done, but there is no way that acts of brutality made by a few justifies the second intifada, and the terrorism created to totally dissolve israel.