AARHE: Phase 3: land Combat

Quote from: Imperious Leader on July 09, 2006, 10:59:15 PM
Air and naval units “withdraw” when they “retreat”, hence no return fire or live capture.

+++ no return fire… but looking at forcing each defending infantry to roll d6 and a one result = capture… what you think?

(No return fire for this case or for land/naval/air retreats?)
++++ naw not fair.

Yeah we discussed a little about “live capture” before.

As before I think it should depend on relative army sizes.
We don’t want 1 ARM to capture many many INF.

+++++ very good idea…brilliant actually!  for every armor unit the defender rolls one die for each infantry unit and its captured on a six or one.

So instead of one roll for each retreating defending INF…it should be each attacking ARM.

++ yes right

And then I think artillery is slow too so should be envelopable too?

+++= right to slow… they are in fixed positions

But if defender has land units left to fight…would all this still make sense?

+++ of course they can fight… its just some penalty for defender retreat and modelling being surrounded in an abstract game.

Say attacker has 3 ARM left, defender retreats 3 INF and leaves 2 ARM behind…should the 3 attacking ARM be able to envelop the retreating defending INF?

+++ yes two rolls capturing them on a six 1-5 no effect ( they retreat) defending tanks dont “sheild” this. presumably the territory is large and getting surrounded can occur within other parts of the same territory ( look at western europe… its a huge area)… remember that in the stated example tank hits go on enemy tanks before another unit.

So its quite complex.

++++ if you play it its quite easy once you do it… and it seems alot more realistic

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+++ok sure. The pending combat thing is not that big a deal. if it is then each territory can be done together round by round so that if any retreating territories are lost then the fight is to the death at least for defender.

Thats what I was thinking too. Very realistic.
But I am scared of having so many “combat boards”?

++++ you dont need this… this example is quite remote for practical play and at most theirs allways one spot to retreat too because of interior lines. at most one other battle board.

Pending combat can be a big deal. Defending units can end up fighting in more than one combat while attacking units can’t?
Imagine the powerful FTR piece defending at 4…defending at multiple territories…

+++ were not allowing that so defending planes can be involved in more than one DAS mission… of course different planes can be allocated to different missions. only not the same plane twice… remember one mission as attacker and one mission as defender each plane.

Of course we could not let the units participate in more than 1 combat…but gotta think of the rule to deal with that.

++++ huh? its allready stated NOT MORE THAN ONE MISSION AS DEFENDER OR ATTACKER.

exceptions is air transport for bombers.

I used the wrong word. Its “parting shot”.
Now to be clear.
No more “parting shot” for all combats?

+++++ LOL your using my terminology from along time ago!  no no parting shots…

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Say attacker has 3 ARM left, defender retreats 3 INF and leaves 2 ARM behind…should the 3 attacking ARM be able to envelop the retreating defending INF?

+++ yes two rolls capturing them on a six 1-5 no effect ( they retreat) defending tanks dont “sheild” this. presumably the territory is large and getting surrounded can occur within other parts of the same territory ( look at western europe… its a huge area)… remember that in the stated example tank hits go on enemy tanks before another unit.

Firstly we should make it capture on “1” rather than “6”, to be inline with general axis and allies rolling.

+++++ ok thats fine.

Now, I understand a territory is a large area. But I think its more realistic if only attacking ARM in excess (1-to-1 to defending remaining to fight) should take part in capturing.

+++++ ok that probably works out better… so the new rules is only if you have more tanks than the defender each additional tank forces the defender to roll for every retreating infantry or artillery… NOTE I THINK WE SHOULD ADD ARTILLERY… because they move slow like infantry and are situated in fixed positions…so overruns are possible.

I mean consider another example.
Attacker has 3 ARM left. Defender has more…say 5 ARM and 5 INF left.
But defender chooses to retreat the 5 INF anyway…for whatever reason.

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++++ you dont need this… this example is quite remote for practical play and at most theirs allways one spot to retreat too because of interior lines. at most one other battle board.

You mean if there is one or more adjacent friendly territories with no “pending combat” then you must choose among those? No option to check two combats cycle by cycle in that case?

+++++ Yes right you can… thats makes quick work of that “problem”

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++++ huh? its allready stated NOT MORE THAN ONE MISSION AS DEFENDER OR ATTACKER.
exceptions is air transport for bombers.

Firstly, we take “Air Transport” as a special non-combat move, one that is allowed even after taking part in combat?

++++ yes air transport goes on in non combat anyway.

Now, I was talking about if units that performed a mission can still fight?
Say a FTR performed DAS, can it still combat after it finish the mission?

+++++++Again it can do a DAS as the defender and a new mission on its own active turn.

UK attacks “Western Europe”. A German FTR at “Germany” comes to perform DAS in “Western Europe”.
When finished it retreats to “Germany”.
But “Germany” happens to be under attack too…can it take part in defending “Germany”?

++++ no because all defending planes land only after the end of all combat… thus they land in territories within 1/2 flight range. The allies take western and german planes remain untill other combat is resolved in other territories like in OOB

If it can’t, how do we keep track?

++++ you only have to keep track of movement points left over as the attacker like you do in OOB rules.

Of course I agree. I suggested it first.

++++ yes you did good!

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You mean if there is one or more adjacent friendly territories with no “pending combat” then you must choose among those? No option to check two combats cycle by cycle in that case?
+++++ Yes right you can… thats makes quick work of that “problem”

Ok so defender can must retreat to friendly territories with no pending combat if avaliable. If unavailable we do cycle-by-cycle analysis for defending land units, fly 1/2 range for defending air units.

++++ exactly perfect!

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++++ no because all defending planes land only after the end of all combat… thus they land in territories within 1/2 flight range. The allies take western and german planes remain untill other combat is resolved in other territories like in OOB

Ok so air units that performed a DAS mission do not take part in further combat for the rest of the (passive) turn.

+++++yes exactly you got it perfect!

do you see any other “problems” with the current combat porposal?

well, we do have “air interdiction” to talk about if we are having that

also, you haven’t answered whether you ok with not able to have “battle of britain” style attacks?
that is
attacker: air
defender: air + land

current proposal only allows one cycle of combat
just like

attacker: air
defender air + naval

+++++++ Ok the air interdiction idea is basically from AH d-day, but with some changes. Its one round because if it wasnt then that mission would never be tried. I playtested it and thats a correct statement. The basic idea is a simple way to demonstrate some influence on moving land units, and secondly to feature some ability to “bomb” rail lines where this type of mission is performed.

I think the rules are posted at avalon hill.com

BTW i bought this “operation barbarossa” game which is touted as a axis and allies expansion… its very simple and fun to play… i was surprised how fun it is.

www.conquestgaming.com

24.95

not a bad game really!

How come one is fighter and one is bomber?

++++ great question! i think this fell thru the cracks… it really should be either.

Maritime Defense

I think this can be under Defensive Air Support.

++++ yes probably right… to simplify that should be changed… the idea was to seperate it because now were dealing with oceans and warships instead of.

Its just a special case of it involving an adjacent friendly sea zone, rather than an adjacent friendly territory.

Note: Under current rules, land FTR or BMR may only fight for one cycle in the sea.

Its on the active players turn… he places his bomber in a territory on his turn… the bomber stays until exactly one turn later when it can be used for other things

Yes you fight it out with pne round of interdiction combat. so your bomber will need escorts. the defending player is using his passive air mission in this case.

I cant find this section: I think you want multiple air battles over British skies?

OK so heres a possible solution: German planes can fly over British territory and SBR its industrial complex with one round of combat. this is the only current method where we allow such a dogfight for its own w/o any land units involved… Now say we use any remaining movement points left over that the German planes have to force additional combat rounds with each additional round costing one additional movement point.

example: lets give the fighters 6 movement points and bombers 8 MP however the planes have to land exactly where they came from… no more take off from UK to bomb Africa and land in north Africa…thus in western Europe German planes can expend 2 MP to get to england and use 2 MP to get back… this leaves 2 free MP which allows up to 3 rounds or air combat over england ( using those modified aerial combat values).

thats one free round as per normal rules and one round for each free MP available.