For non-scramblers, how does your game play out?

@Zhukov44:

Since there are only 5 Axis shooters, the reason I don’t scramble is that your chances of getting diced in this particular battle are high.   With the full commit you’re facing 7 shooters and 9 hits (DD CA 3 FIG 1 TB 1 SB, (CV)

I agree, too dicey.  There’s considerably less risk in waiting for G2 to mop up this fleet.

But there are some cases where this scramble may not be a bad play or a bad risk.

Even with this full deployment Axis has a 5% chance of winning the battle and the average TUV swing is -9 less than w/o the scramble.  That means the 30 ipcs in fighters invested will yield an average of -39 tuv dmg to Allies in 97.   Not to mention that if Allies lose the average 2 fig 1 ac 1 dd (leaving just a cruiser in 97) Italy will lose 6-8 less ipcs to convoys Ita1.

So far the scramble looks good.  But it looks less good if we compare it to waiting for the G2 Luftwaffe attack.  If there is 1 ac 2 fig 1 dd 1 cru remaining in 97 (any less makes it a good target for an Ita1 counter), then Germany (assuming a strong deployment) should rarely lose more than 3 figs, which is a +26 swing.

So on paper, the math for scrambling Ita1 may not look quite as good as waiting for G2.  But there might also be openings on the board that couldn’t be pursued (as vigorously) if Germany needs to devote the bulk of the Luftwaffe to counter 97.

[Edited to fix my math]

Yeah, ok.

All this ignores that I would value Italian planes less than Luftwaffe. They aren’t getting you on Moscow. For that reason, I often scramble.

@taamvan:

The best scramble IMO is over Scotland, because the pat opener is to do 6 hits to 111 and 8 hits to 110.  With just the 6 attackers, if Germany flubs its first run of dice, the allies can stop this attack cold if they get 2+ hits on their first round.

I agree but some axis players will bulk up the SZ111 attack to prevent this scramble. That can enable a SZ110 scramble.

I’m not a very good player; but at least for me, I like to scramble a lot with Italy against Taranto. I’ve found it easier to clear the med. Italy attacks the French navy and then Germany has to clean up the lone UK cruiser in sz96. There are other tasks that I like to do with the Luffwaffe besides expensive attacks in the med. Why not use the Italian battleship and cruiser to soak hits and wipe out UK stuff with it. Often the scrambled planes get to roll 2x.

Force the UK to spend on a new navy and airbases ect at Cairo in order to deny Italy the 5 IPCs for no surface warfare ships. In a way, I’d rather lose 2 Italian fighters than 3+ planes on G2. Germany is on a stict time table where you want the UK to be forced to send up swarms of fighters to Moscow rather than do what it want.

Losing the italian fighters early cripples italy very badly for the rest of the game;  especially it’s opening rounds where it needs to expand.

You need those fighters everywhere I1 through I3 to secure NO’s and ensure that your forces are winning battles handidly, and not getting ground down.

Italy really needs to watch itself,  it’s one thing to lose some units defending, but you have to be careful that you don’t burn up all your units on your own turn as well.  Italy needs a certain critical mass of units on the board to do anything significant.

As for simon’s comment on the Italian planes not helping you on Moscow.  Whilst that’s true,  I’ve won many a game using the italian fighters to punch that critical hole through the russian lines; and/or keep the russian defense honest.  Worth their weight in gold.

So we have kinda established that if the axis scramble sz97, that it really hampers what Italy can do on the first couple turns. Another thing is that if the Italians lose those couple ftrs It1 that they really can’t pressure Egypt (if that is the plan). Often times the Italians will move up to Alex on It1, and the Germans will land planes on Alex G2. Germany more or less loans Italy planes after they dismiss the UK navy in sz97 to protect the Italian ground force on Alex. This isn’t worth doing if the Italians are down a couple ftrs because they won’t have the strike force to hit Egypt now. I realize that Italy may or may not be able to take Egypt, but taking that risk off the table allows UK some breathing room non the less.

you could arrange to land more luftwaffe in S.Italy on G1 non combat move

In a recent game, 2 tanks failed to kill 1 inf in rostov. Sure, in an outcome like that, the two starting fighters might have helped. Not sure how common that is though.

I agree with the point that scrambling means you can’t pressure Egypt but Egypt usually doesn’t fall early unless some transports survive. I would think scrambling a bad idea if I saw an ic build uk1.

I’m not sure of the other value from the starting Italian fighters garg is referring to though.

I also preserve my ITA Ftr’s by not scrambling and send them out and luring for opportunities to kill off some units.
One might be a placed russian CR in sz 114. Voilia Leningrad is open!

As an Aggressor, the opportunities to make an impact should be on your side on your turn.
If you scramble, you will likely loose this because it is not the choice for you to make.
You simply placed it in your opponents what he will do with your Fighters.
If he continues the battle you have no saying in that.

BUT: as Italy you have to stay operational and luring for chances to direct the path Euro Axis should go and not hand it over.

That is my Philosophy about it.

Scrambling makes sense when you can clearly change the outcome of a battle and still be operational or prevent a disaster.

The UK Fleet can be taken out by two different ways.
They are allready explained.
Either by German Luftwaffe or by Italy via amphib on Greece.

To weddingsinger’s point, this is why staging the Germany planes on Rome and even bombers (or planes of any kind or team) on Western Germany is strong, because the UK has to be ready to fend off every enemy plane before it can squat on Italy’s money (or stack up pretty much anywhere but SZ 109)

But you can’t have that air power over there and still attack Moscow, the geometry of the map wont permit that.  So as you move to make the killing blow against one ally, the other steps up.

If Germany doesn’t have anything to do with it’s planes on g2 I prefer the less risky kill it with Germany planes on a counter attack or Italy kills it if no fighters left on it.

Italy usually has other battles it can do like sink French or whatever.

If Germany is low on air for some reason… A scramble can be better depending on how underwhelming the raid is.

Agreed, with the caveat that if this is your option you need to also be prepared to hit Greece in case the UK also activated it to provide a landing place for it’s planes.

Marsh

As opposed to an extra 30 ipc loss from scrambling? Yes. Even if you assume that Germany will lose 21 IPCs on the counter, then you’re breaking even NOT counting the massive UK naval losses.

Marsh

The issue i think is that you’re assuming Italy can get the NO. It can’t, unless the UK lets it by withdrawing from the Med.

Standard UK1 in the Med is sea zone 97 and sea zone 96. Assuming that UK has a ship left in sea zone 96, Italy does not have enough force without relying on lucky rolls (always a losing move!) to clear sea zones 93, 96, and 97 with 95%+ battles.

Even if the UK does not have a ship in sea zone 96, Italy still does not have enough to clear sea zone 93 and sea zone 97 with 95%+ battles. If you scramble to sea zone 97 on UK1, you can’t even do those two sea zones with a reasonable chance of winning.

In short, you’re counting an NO that Italy cannot realistically obtain as part of your math. Unless you get very lucky, you will not win one of the three battles you need to win for that NO. Even if you do, your losses will be devastating.

Marsh

@weddingsinger:

@aequitas:

Scrambling makes sense when you can clearly change the outcome of a battle and still be operational or prevent a disaster.

The UK Fleet can be taken out by two different ways.
They are allready explained.
Either by German Luftwaffe or by Italy via amphib on Greece.

So you hit the UK fleet with Italy’s, and leave the French?

If you are playing a Balanced Mod game and activating Vichy, those ships turn Neutral anyway. That has some effect on the decision here.

@simon33:

@weddingsinger:

@aequitas:

Scrambling makes sense when you can clearly change the outcome of a battle and still be operational or prevent a disaster.

The UK Fleet can be taken out by two different ways.
They are allready explained.
Either by German Luftwaffe or by Italy via amphib on Greece.

So you hit the UK fleet with Italy’s, and leave the French?

If you are playing a Balanced Mod game and activating Vichy, those ships turn Neutral anyway. That has some effect on the decision here.

YEA IF YOU ARE PLAYING BALANCE MOD THAT WOULD DEFIANTLY CHANGE THE GIST OF SCRAMBLING TO SZ97.

Anyway, if scrambling to sz97 seems to be working for you, then you should continue to do it wedsing. A couple things done G1 could help too. Like if the Germans gets lucky and knocks out the sz91 cruiser then you don’t have to worry about clearing sz96 on Italy’s turn. If Germany takes S France on G1, then the French ships in sz93 can’t run too far (2 spaces), so they are either still in the Med or in sz91 (easy targets for Germany G2). If you do scramble then you shouldn’t get convoyed, and have a better chance of taking Greece and keeping your fleet together under the scramble umbrella of Rome.

I get that many of you do play balanced mode, but aren’t these forums for Axis and Allies Global 1940? Balanced Mode is NOT Axis and Allies Global 1940.

Marsh

I still like scrambling with 2 Italian fighters and 1 German fighter. Perhaps I won’t if the UK chances are 91% or better WITH a 3 fighter scramble. When it’s less than 91%, often the UK wins the fight with a few planes left that land on Malta and nothing in SZ97 or just 1 ship. I get to that no surface warfare ships in the med much quicker and actually get to collect it for a few turns. The TUV change seems to work out overall more in the Axis’ advantage and Italy wasn’t convoyed. Either scrambling or not is about 3 Axis plans lost. I just got a whole lot more bang for my buck with that 2 hit point battleship. Not scrambling really sucks especially when Italy rolls zero hits in SZ97. Then at least 3 IF NOT 4 German planes could get shot down if you want to clear the med. Now, it’s even harder to get to that Battle Calc level where the UK is FORCED to help Russia rather than do whatever it wants to.

I don’t know how Italy really can get to other objectives with those 2 fighters when not scrambling against competent UK players. I’m just not that good to see it.