I prefer KGF because even though Axis Europe needs two more cities, they can reach all of them easier because they don’t have to rely on a navy to get the easiest ones which would be France, USSR, and then Egypt. Japan needs a navy.
@Caesar:
I prefer KGF because even though Axis Europe needs two more cities, they can reach all of them easier because they don’t have to rely on a navy to get the easiest ones which would be France, USSR, and then Egypt. Japan needs a navy.
:?
Japan can sink the entire allied navy in the Pacific even if it combines around an 3 scramble airbase with its starting navy and do that without any land based plane support, at least most probably.
@Caesar:
I prefer KGF because even though Axis Europe needs two more cities, they can reach all of them easier because they don’t have to rely on a navy to get the easiest ones which would be France, USSR, and then Egypt. Japan needs a navy.
:?
Japan can sink the entire allied navy in the Pacific even if it combines around an 3 scramble airbase with its starting navy and do that without any land based plane support, at least most probably.
Not in long games where USA is hammering the Japanese with bombers and island hoping on top of being reinforced by ANZAC and maybe UK as needed to boost defensive numbers. Germany can focus on a straight shot for there cites, move west into France, move east into USSR, go south into the middle east, go west into Egypt.
Japan can’t exact straight shot there cities due to the complex nature in the Pacific. Thus requires a turtle invasion of taking each city at a time or try to engage their cities on different fronts.
I need to rethink KGF. I usually go heavy against Japan and just try to contain Germany. Germany is just so darn easy to defend with two 10 factories back to back.
But, reality is Japan, even if it has India and the DEI, doesn’t make necessarily any more money than the USA. So when it comes time for the showdown, the USA should, even if it has heavily invested in Europe, be able build up quickly to block Japan for the last VC.
I need to rethink KGF. I usually go heavy against Japan and just try to contain Germany. Germany is just so darn easy to defend with two 10 factories back to back.
But, reality is Japan, even if it has India and the DEI, doesn’t make necessarily any more money than the USA. So when it comes time for the showdown, the USA should, even if it has heavily invested in Europe, be able build up quickly to block Japan for the last VC.
It’s a wiser choice too. As I said before, Japan needs a navy to escort its transports to get to several of there cities making their offensive plans more in detail therefor more easier to contain. All it really takes to stop Japanese victory if it game down to it is to camp such a large fleet in Pearl Harbor, it would force Japan to help Germany.
German on the other hand, doesn’t need a navy one bit because it can walk its army to all of its objective. Plus I believe that Germany has a 100% win over USSR on a perfect game assuming USSR doesn’t get any help. So it makes sense to contain Germany far before Japan. You can stop Japan defensively, you can’t do that with Germany.
@Caesar:
@Caesar:
I prefer KGF because even though Axis Europe needs two more cities, they can reach all of them easier because they don’t have to rely on a navy to get the easiest ones which would be France, USSR, and then Egypt. Japan needs a navy.
:?
Japan can sink the entire allied navy in the Pacific even if it combines around an 3 scramble airbase with its starting navy and do that without any land based plane support, at least most probably.
Not in long games where USA is hammering the Japanese with bombers and island hoping on top of being reinforced by ANZAC and maybe UK as needed to boost defensive numbers. Germany can focus on a straight shot for there cites, move west into France, move east into USSR, go south into the middle east, go west into Egypt.
Japan can’t exact straight shot there cities due to the complex nature in the Pacific. Thus requires a turtle invasion of taking each city at a time or try to engage their cities on different fronts.
First you say KGF then you say invest in units to attack Japan?
I don’t think either KJF or KGF strategies are viable in Global.
I need to rethink KGF. I usually go heavy against Japan and just try to contain Germany. Germany is just so darn easy to defend with two 10 factories back to back.
But, reality is Japan, even if it has India and the DEI, doesn’t make necessarily any more money than the USA. So when it comes time for the showdown, the USA should, even if it has heavily invested in Europe, be able build up quickly to block Japan for the last VC.
In support of a Kill Germany First allies plan:
I’ve never done this, but General Hand Grenade mentions that the US should shuck 2 infantry to Hawaii every turn even if going after Germany First. I’m going to give this a considerable look. That might mean purchasing a few carriers for the Pacific to build up the infrastructure; and also Anzac does a turtle thing too with infantry / fighter purchases. The US might be able to get away with this for about 5-6 turns. Then when Japan comes for Hawaii, the US could purchase 7 fighters, plus whatever is already in the Pacific and land them on top of Hawaii; meanwhile spending 85-90% against Europe Axis. The US Navy already there in the Pacific might be enough to also help ANZAC keep its Dutch New Guinea NO for a few turns as well (but not for long as the JIN grows super strong).
Regarding the arguments for KGF, I’d go back to the original reason people focus on Japan–the fact that Japan can potentially win the game by J6 or J7 while Germany/Italy generally cannot. Any “KGF” in Global is essentially a balanced approach, because if 50%+ of USA’s income isn’t going towards Japan, then Allies won’t last much past J7.
It seems to me that if the Japanese airforce is intact, then it would be very tough to hold both NSW and Hawaii indefinitely. Crucially, American airforce can’t fly directly from Haw to NSW or vice versa.
I miss the days when my opponents would try to KGF me after J1 and Axis would almost always win the game round 6 or 7. Germany is forced to turtle and fend off a variety of attacks while Japan goes hog wild and gets to 90+ income.
KGF fails even in G42 where you get a sped-up start to the war.
Germany is structurally too strong to affect its economy. I had subs all over his convoy zones, invading Normandy and Holland every turn, took Norway for 3 turns, eventually even got a beachhead on Normandy he couldn’t push off–but its all a distraction because as long as he focuses the fast movers and planes on Russia, eventually its economy gets stripped and Germany can easily hold off the other allies and finish off Russia with 70. And Japan, has 88. That’s just how G42 accelerates the game–the axis takes the middle takes the money, chokes Russia, game over.
They both have ridiculous NOs. The 5 for Caucasus, Bombay and Stalingrad are pretty much silly, just piling on. Taking Leningrad is so easy, and inevitable, I don’t understand why that one has a bonus either.
So for all my Atlantic action, I cost Germany like 20-30 income, which he took from Russia in 1 turn. And that was the weak Axis power!
The reason KJF works is because Japan is actually vulnerable and capable of being defeated. At least until it reaches threshold (70) income. Once its there, the US can no longer outbuild them and Japan wins. Few people cite the fact that neither axis power can be actually invaded in a 10 turn game (say what you will, its never happened in 170 games…), and that is the Allied VC total domination of Axis capitals.
Regarding the arguments for KGF, I’d go back to the original reason people focus on Japan–the fact that Japan can potentially win the game by J6 or J7 while Germany/Italy generally cannot. Any “KGF” in Global is essentially a balanced approach, because if 50%+ of USA’s income isn’t going towards Japan, then Allies won’t last much past J7.
It seems to me that if the Japanese airforce is intact, then it would be very tough to hold both NSW and Hawaii indefinitely. Crucially, American airforce can’t fly directly from Haw to NSW or vice versa.
I miss the days when my opponents would try to KGF me after J1 and Axis would almost always win the game round 6 or 7. Germany is forced to turtle and fend off a variety of attacks while Japan goes hog wild and gets to 90+ income.
Zhukov, you don’t think there is a benefit to a Kill Germany First approach? And yes I generally agree with the consensus that going after Germany first is not optimal. I think I executed a pretty good KJF against you on triplea live one time. You’re a much better player than me but I think you said there was some merit to what I was trying.
Yes, it’s hard to hold Hawaii and NSW. But when their just stacked with units like a 2nd/3rd Moscow, it’s also difficult for Japan to capture both; especially when the US then starts building 100% Pacific.
We all know that either Axis country becomes near unstoppable if left alone and the Allies need a sizable bid if similar skills on both sides.
I want to try to learn how to execute a KGF game if possible as another Allies tool. There are some benefits to a Kill Germany First (or at least against me when I’m Axis). 1. The UK has more time to beef up the middle east. 2. Germany might not have enough to drive south while maintaining it’s foothold on Bryansk and spending to fend off landings. 3. The UK Europe can help fight towards liberating India when the US has to switch to spending in the Pacific.
Regarding the arguments for KGF, I’d go back to the original reason people focus on Japan–the fact that Japan can potentially win the game by J6 or J7 while Germany/Italy generally cannot. � Any “KGF” in Global is essentially a balanced approach, because if 50%+ of USA’s income isn’t going towards Japan, then Allies won’t last much past J7. �
It seems to me that if the Japanese airforce is intact, then it would be very tough to hold both NSW and Hawaii indefinitely. � Crucially, American airforce can’t fly directly from Haw to NSW or vice versa. �
I miss the days when my opponents would try to KGF me after J1 and Axis would almost always win the game round 6 or 7. � Germany is forced to turtle and fend off a variety of attacks while Japan goes hog wild and gets to 90+ income.
Zhukov, you don’t think there is a benefit to a Kill Germany First approach? And yes I generally agree with the consensus that going after Germany first is not optimal. I think I executed a pretty good KJF against on triplea live one time. You’re a much better player than me but I think you said there was some merit to what I was trying.
Yes, it’s hard to hold Hawaii and NSW. But when their just stacked with units like a 2nd/3rd Moscow, it’s also difficult for Japan to capture both; especially when the US then starts building 100% Pacific.
We all know that either Axis country becomes near unstoppable if left alone and the Allies need a sizable bid if similar skills on both sides.
I want to try to learn how to execute a KGF game if possible as another Allies tool. There are some benefits to a Kill Germany First (or at least against me when I’m Axis). 1. The UK has more time to beef up the middle east. 2. Germany might not have enough to drive south while maintaining it’s foothold on Bryansk and spending to fend off landings. 3. The UK Europe can help fight towards liberating India when the US has to switch to spending in the Pacific.
There are lots of different strategies that could work. Regardless of whether the intention is KGF or KJF (KJF being USA devoting 75%+ of their resources to the Pacific, while KGF is more like 50-60%), it is important for USA to help eliminate Western Axis naval fleets. More controversial is whether they should help out with convoys in the Med and patrolling the Med. Finally there is the option of building up a fleet and landing in Western Europe in conjunction with the UK. I’ve successfully done the latter against a wide variety of opponents but I find that it is hard to pull off against the very best Axis. The very best Axis either defends Germany so well that Russia is boxed out and forced to sit in Moscow while USA/UK can’t get established in Western Europe….or they overwhelm Allies with Japan before Allies can break down Germany/Italy.
What I would argue is that USA needs to have some kind of air/fleet in the Pacific that is competitive with the Japanese fleet regardless of whether they are KGF. Trying to defensively stack NSW and Hawaii is not a winning strategy imho, in part because it’s possible Axis will achieve economic victory by totally dominating Eurasia, in part because Japan starts with so many planes that (around j5-j7) it’s tough to defend either Hawaii or NSW from the full force of Japanese fleet and air.
It’s all about reading the board and seizing opportunities imho, so there’s no one formula. If for example Germany leaves Norway open, it’s nice for USA to be in position to seize that opportunity, even if they are KJF.
I have tried to invade Japan many times (given 10% or above) and I have failed each time :(. One time I even had a 70% if he scrambled and lost the naval battle (naval battle was 70%). MAN I LOST EVERYTIME~!
@Cow:
I have tried to invade Japan many times (given 10% or above) and I have failed each time :(. One time I even had a 70% if he scrambled and lost the naval battle (naval battle was 70%). MAN I LOST EVERYTIME~!
You would be surprised to see that I’ve done faux invasions just to allow naval bombards to soften Japan and then proceed to launch my real invasion after.
Sounds like we’re all inn agreement that a 100% kgf or kjf is a loser.
Then the question becomes how USA should help each side. Taking Norway seems like about the minimum for the Pacific.
100% KJF is NOT a loser. Japan in G40 can be torn apart via a number of different strategies. These strategies do not work on Germany. If Japan can reach or exceed USA wartime income, then even these KJFs will falter (this is more likely in G42 than G40)
KGF does not mean 100% Atlantic. It means trying to kill Germany. Since this doesn’t work, it should be called AGO= Annoy Germany Often.
100% KJF is NOT a loser. Japan in G40 can be torn apart via a number of different strategies. These strategies do not work on Germany. If Japan can reach or exceed USA wartime income, then even these KJFs will falter (this is more likely in G42 than G40)
KGF does not mean 100% Atlantic. It means trying to kill Germany. Since this doesn’t work, it should be called AGO= Annoy Germany Often.
Is the Europe strategy in KJF to turtle in London and Egypt and delay in the Middle East as long as possible after Moscow falls on G6 or G7?
100% KJF is NOT a loser. Japan in G40 can be torn apart via a number of different strategies. These strategies do not work on Germany. If Japan can reach or exceed USA wartime income, then even these KJFs will falter (this is more likely in G42 than G40)
KGF does not mean 100% Atlantic. It means trying to kill Germany. Since this doesn’t work, it should be called AGO= Annoy Germany Often.
Is the Europe strategy in KJF to turtle in London and Egypt and delay in the Middle East as long as possible after Moscow falls on G6 or G7?
Most likely yes as a fallen France and USSR, European Axis only need Egypt, London, or DC for victory.
100% KJF is NOT a loser. Japan in G40 can be torn apart via a number of different strategies. These strategies do not work on Germany. If Japan can reach or exceed USA wartime income, then even these KJFs will falter (this is more likely in G42 than G40)
KGF does not mean 100% Atlantic. It means trying to kill Germany. Since this doesn’t work, it should be called AGO= Annoy Germany Often.
Well, it doesn’t really work to kill Tokyo either. I once lost a world domination game that I would have won because I bothered to kill Tokyo. KJF = AJO if you are going to be literal about it.
Yes! 2016 tourney G42 the other table the axis had UK and the allies had Japan and Axis still won, I believe.
I should clarify that I do not mean that I think either Japan or Germany can be invaded, Rome is very difficult if Germany helps. Both major Axis capitals would take many turns to wear down, I’ve never taken either over in a game that wasn’t a blowout…if ever…maybe in our very first games.
But Japan’s economy can be defeated, if all the Allies work together in lockstep. Falling into the J1 plan makes it easy for them.
Yes! 2016 tourney G42 the other table the axis had UK and the allies had Japan and Axis still won, I believe.
I should clarify that I do not mean that I think either Japan or Germany can be invaded, Rome is very difficult if Germany helps. Both major Axis capitals would take many turns to wear down, I’ve never taken either over in a game that wasn’t a blowout…if ever…maybe in our very first games.
But Japan’s economy can be defeated, if all the Allies work together in lockstep. Falling into the J1 plan makes it easy for them.
Why does J1 make it easier to defeat Japan?
