G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)

@baron-Münchhausen said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

Transport (reg combat variant) (0.38 or less)
[Variant M3: Move 3-4, Cost 8, 1 hit, each TP also gets 1 escape roll @1]
Attack 0
Defense 1* * 1@1 for all friendly TPs group in SZ
Move 2-3
Cost 8
1 hit
Carry 1 Inf+1 any ground
Can be taken as casualty according to owner’s choice.

@baron-Münchhausen for the ‘collective’ 1@1-per-group TP variant, is the 1 hitpoint also supposed to be ‘collective’ (e.g. max 1 hit that counts for all TP in SZ)? Or does each TP get it’s own assigned HP? Interesting balance between defenseless and meat shield, it if is collective.

Update to 2.6 on triplea
It’s under Experimental in Map Downloads “Global 40 House Rules”.

Changes the Battleship AA fire to 1 shot that hits at 1 in 10.

Added Cruisers Attack at a 4 when paired 1:1 with a Battleship.

Also adds Planes Target Naval which allows Tac Bombers and Fighters to target Cruisers and Battleships with 1 shot that hits at 2 out of 10 before regular combat.

And adds Planes Target Carriers which includes Carriers as Targets as well.

Was talking about Cruisers again with some people here a few weeks ago and said how I like to give CAs and BBs AA ability.
Even though I’ve been doing that for a few years now, it started me thinking some more about it.

If one sends all planes at a Cruiser that has 2 AA shots then it’s regular combat shot, you could lose up to 3 planes in the first rd of combat.
This is the opposite of all planes against ships historically, so added the ability to have planes target the ships back.
Seems a good compromise that doesn’t give the ships AA fire an undue advantage. Although according to my test games it seemed mostly small or early round battles where Ship AA was most impactful.
Thought about it some more and realized the OOB game had the same issue. So the AA abilities and the plane targeting abilities are pretty similar odds wise.

The idea was to encourage Cruiser buys without adversely affecting other Naval builds, primarily Battleships. With the Cruiser Attack 4 and Battleship AA reduced, I think it should work. However, while I’ve tested a lot of “situations” I’m still on the first full test game. And, as I’ve said before, I’m not a real good player, 🙂 so could be a flawed idea. Hopefully there are enough other Options to counter any unintended advantage. : )

Unfortunately there is a undesired side effect when “Subs Can Evade Destroyers” is active. The Tac Bombers will now attack at 2 out of 10 on Subs instead of 1 out of 6.
They also can no longer stack attacks against Subs, which is the bigger disappointment, but one I feel is worth it.
Their 2 out of 10 attack is slightly stronger than 1 out of 6, so that helps somewhat and the majority of my test games usually don’t have multiple Tac attacks on a single Sub.

Another unwanted side effect was that Subs will also be one of the “Targeted” ships along with the Cruisers, Battleships and Carriers. So if you attack with Tacs and there are Subs present, the defender can use them as fodder if you get a “Targeted” hit. Attack with only Fighters and the Subs aren’t an option.

As I said above, since I’m still on my first test game, Idk if this will be a problem or not. My guess is you will want to protect your CVs with CAs for their AA ability and Subs for fodder and they’re pretty good anyways being unblocked.

DDs are cheaper than subs in the Options I use, so that helps and the Plane targeting should help. Should also encourage multi unit attacks with Destroyers and Escort ASW Carriers because they could kill the Sub/s first and then all Plane attacks would go against the Capital Ships.
Anyway, hopefully it makes for some interesting tactical decisions : )
I guess as the Zen Master said

We’ll see 🙂

These are the Options I’ve been using. Added the CA A4 and the Plane Targeting RD 2.

Option Redesign Notes.txt

When does this AA for ships count ? First round only ? And the Tac and fig ?
d10 dice
BB @1 10%. Plane
Tac fig @2 20% Ship

Have you looked at d6 dice
BB A4 D4 target plane @1 16%
CR A3 D3 target plane @1
CR.A4 D4. With BB target plane @1

Tac A3 D3 target ship @1 16%
Fig. A3 D4. target ship @1
This is for every round of combat.

I like where your going with plane picks target
Now you got the naval fig and naval dive and torpedo bombers like more historical without adding these planes pieces to game.
But I will be checking on how good the land Tac and fig were against navy. This is what makes Japan to strong in the air planes when you can land land planes on carriers when it should only be naval planes landing on carriers but of course this is for 40 game. Killin me still.
No lol

@SS-GEN

yea it’s for 1st rd only. Happens before regular combat. Originally had CA getting 2 AA shots that hit at 1 in 6 but found that it’s too devastating when they hit. Probably why a lot of people play AA shots with Low Luck.

Then I decided BBs should have the ability as well so people wouldn’t go all CA, so lowered them to 2 shots at 1 in 10. Wanted them to be able to shoot at more than 1 plane still, so that’s why I lowered it.

After recent discussion on CA decided to lower BB to 1 shot so one would still be encouraged to buy more CAs from an AA perspective. Coupled with the addition of CA getting +1 A when paired with BB didn’t wanna see BB CA pairs, although I never really tested that.

Wanted the planes to be slightly stronger than the ships, since I think Defensive fleets tend to have the advantage and planes against ships historically favored the planes.

So with the CA having 2 shots at a 1 in 10 hit if there’s 2 planes they have a 19% chance of 1 hit and obviously a 10% chance if only 1 plane. 2 Planes have a 20 % chance of a hit same as 1 plane.

But you also wanna bring enough power to win the regular battle so, 1 plane might not be enough and if that CA is protecting a CV then the 2 planes have a 36% chance of a hit.

With Subs being potential fodder, this is where I’ve ended up. I haven’t tried giving the CA only 1 AA shot as I tried to model it after the Land AAgun that I use which has 2 shots. They hit at 1 in 6 although in testing it seems they may be too powerful and should be dropped to 1 in 8.

Anyway, gonna give this a go for now and see what happens :)

Yea I thought about adding the naval planes but that would take a big price, combat and move value adjustment for a lot of stuff I’d think. Probably do it some day though :)

@barnee

Ran into a couple things that needed fixing during test game. While at it I redid the math on “Planes Can Target Naval” and decided I had over compensated for the fact that Tac Bmbrs can’t stack against Subs, so changed that up.

Here’s what we have now:

When “Planes Can Target Naval” is activated Tacs and Ftrs will now hit ships at 1 in 8. Ftrs attack has been separated from Tacs so they can do joint attacks against Ships without Subs adversely affecting the battle.

Before if you attacked with say, 3 Ftrs 3 Tacs against a CA BB CV and 2 SS, the 5 Ships would undergo 5 shots and if you had 2 hits, the Sub could take both hits.

Now Ftrs attack, if they get any hits the Sub can’t take them. Tacs then attack and their hits can be taken by the Sub or the Capital ships.

Also, Ftrs Target ships at 1 in 12 on defense and Tacs 1 in 8. This is so the Tac can still shoot at Subs on defense when “SubsCanEvadeDestroyers_ChangerMustActivate” is activated.

Because of that, when “BBandCA_AA” is activated, Cruiser’s and BB’s AA will work when attacking. They hit at 1 in 12.
This can make the Battle Window a little busy, but I think one can get used to it fairly easy. Well see.

Here are the odds of AA and Planes Targeting hits:
AA _ Planes
Shots _ % of Hit _ % of Hit
1 _ 10 _ 12.5
2 _ 19 _ 23.4
3 _ 27.1 _ 33
4 _ 34.4 _ 41.4
5 _ 40.5 _ 48.7
6 _ 46.9 _ 55.1
7 _ 52.2 _ 60.7
8 _ 57 _ 65.6

Guess i should figure out how to make a table some day heh heh

Basically Planes Targeting has a slight advantage over the Ships AA which was what was wanted, as I feel Defensive Fleets tend to have the advantage and Historically Planes were more effective against Ships. It varies depending on the makeup of the forces though and Idk how 2 hit units and Subs will affect things, so we’ll see how it shakes out.

What is your table based off of ? D8 or 1 in 8 hit % ?

D6 / 1 in 6
1 hit 16.7%
2 hit 33.4%

D8 / 1 in 8
1 hit 12.5%
2 hit 25%

D10 / 1 in 10
1 hit 10%
2 hit 20%

D12 / 1 in 12
1 hit 8.3%
2 hit 16.6%

Just seeing if were on aboard with numbers.
Ha the next step which you can’t do but on a board map is the planes and ships can pick there target ( no defenders choice ) before they roll.
BB CR with AA can pick a Tac or Fig and subs can pick any ship but a sub.
Tac pick any ship including sub and Figs any ship ( no sub ) but I still have my ifs on Figs picking. Got to have the air battle first before any attack.

@SS-GEN

yea triplea is limiting but more stuff becomes possible all the time thanks to redrum and the guys.

Yea the Ships AA is 1 out of 10. Planes Targeting is 1 out of 8. So 10 sided and 8 sided. They only fire one time before the regular battle starts then they go to their normal combat values which is 6 sided.

so rolling 2 dice that hit at 1 in 10 their is a 19% of getting one “1”.

Used this guys formula

link text

@vodot
Sorry, it has been a while…
In my own houseruled game, each TP is 1 hit…
The collective roll is for defense only.

Updated to triplea and added these ideas from simon

7)German Trade With Russia
When Deactivated Germany will not receive the Trade with Russia National objective if it has any units in Original Russian Territories.

Prevents Italy declaring war on Russia and taking control of Russian Territory and having Germany move Units into that territory while not at war with Russia and still able to collect the Trade National Objective.

8)Russia Spreads Communism In Africa
When Deactivated Russia will not receive the Spread of Communism National Objective for any Territories Not in Mainland Europe.

Also Mursilis China rules and some of his other ideas

9)China M
Adds the Mursilis China Rules. Changes China’s National Objective to 1 PU for each Burma Road Territory that is Allied controlled. Also allows Artillery builds as long as at least 1 of Burma or India is under Allied control.

If Chinese Guerrilla Fighters have been activated, they will now only spawn once All Burma Road Territories are under Axis control.

Note UK Pacific is Allied with China from the start, which allows UK Pacific Units to move into China. This is unintended and will need to be Player Enforced. May be fixed in the future.

10)China M BM
When used with the “China M” option, Chinese Guerrillas will spawn according to BM Rules .

11)Italy Controls Original
Italy receives 3 PUs when it controls all of it’s Original Territories.

12)USA bonus for North Africa 3 PU
Reduces the BM North Africa USA bonus to 3. Note You need to turn off the “USA bonus for North Africa” option or it will show up as well.

13)Western Europe Beach Head 3 PU
Reduces the BM Western Europe Beach Head for USA bonus to 3.

It’s under Experimental in Map Downloads “Global 40 House Rules”

Hey if anybody wants to give this a test drive (Option redesign with Cruiser A 4, Planes target Naval and Carriers RD 2, …:)
2.642 is the latest. Let me know if you wanna give it a go : )

Update to 2.646

Changed Tacs hitting Subs to “1 in 12” and allow them to stack again when “Planes Target Naval” is activated. They also hit Ships the same way now.

Primarily to help Japan with mid to late game Sub spam. Also help the Allies in the Atlantic, although this doesn’t really seem to be necessary. May still be an issue (Sub spam) but I’ve yet to see it prevent a win. “Attack0 Cost5” Bombers are another concern, but once again, I’ve yet to see them prevent a win and there are Options available to counter them if needed.

Biggest concern is Tacs ganging up on solo BBs, CAs and CVs. However, it does represent Dive Bombers and ASW planes well and while not ideal, subs can still be used as hit soakers.
Basically the “Big Boys” shouldn’t be sailing without support, which is an okay thing imo and they still get to shoot back : ) Well not the CVs…but…

Of course this is only an Option 🙂 Lots of ways to play 🙂

At any rate…that be the update
heh heh

Updated to 2.647

Change Tactical Bomber to hit at 2 in 12 when “Planes Target Naval” activated. Defends at 1 in 12. Does not stack against Subs and Ships. Fighters attack and defend at 1 in 12 against Ships. They do not stack.

Decided since Subs start to increase quite a bit mid to late game, you’d be better off to have the Tac hit at 1 in 6 against multiple targets than being able to stack at 1 in 12.

Ftr is a bit weaker. Ftr and Tac are now 23.6% vs the 25% that they were before when Targeting Ships, so not a big difference. Also emphasizes the Tac over the Ftr, which is what is wanted and keeps things a little more uniform with the CA/BB being the only 10 sided die now.

@barnee said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

{snip}
… with the CA/BB being the only 10 sided die now.

I know I missed most of this conversation, so pardon me for asking you to repeat yourself, but… why are the CAs and BBs using d10s instead of d12s?

-Midnight_Reaper

@Midnight_Reaper

They only use the 10 sided die for their AA shots. 1 Rd of AA same as land AA. BB gets 1 shot at 1 in 10 and CA gets 2 shots at 1 in 10 with no more than 1 shot per plane same as land AA. They use D6 for regular combat as all units do.

Had to tweak the AA a little as 1 in 6 was too powerful.

Ahh… misunderstood your question. Wanted the planes to have a slight advantage over the AA fire. So a Tac Hits at 2 in 12 and the ftr at 1 in 12 giving a 23.6% chance of 1 hit vs 2 shots from a CA which is a 19% chance of a hit. If I went 2 "1 in 12 " for the CA it would have 16% chance of 1 hit if their were 2 planes attacking and the BB only 8.3 %. That was a little weaker than desired.

If a Ftr and Tac are paired up they each get a shot at the ship. If there was just 2 Ftrs or Tacs then they’d only get the 1 shot.

Updated to 2.650 Adds:

16)Movel Victory Conditions Courtesy of taamvan. The Axis need “9” of the following after round 10 for victory:
Hold Berlin=Control Germany
Hold Warsaw=Control Poland
Hold Rome=Control Southern Italy
Hold Paris=Control France
Hold Toykyo=Control Japan
Hold Shanghai=Control Kiangsu
Seize the Caucasus=Control
Control North Africa=Morocco:Algeria:Tunisia:Libya:Tobruk:Alexandria:Egypt
Control All of Balkans=Crete:Yugoslavia:Greece:Bulgaria:Slovakia Hungary:Albania:Romania
Control of Philippines
Control of the Burma Road=India:Burma:Yunnan:Szechwan
Control of “5” Allied Island Territories in the Pacific=New Britain:Solomon Islands:New Guinea:Philippines:Line Islands:Guam:Wake Island:Aleutian Islands:Johnston Island:Hawaiian Islands:Midway:Fiji:Ceylon:Samoa:Gilbert Islands:Celebes:Java:Dutch New Guinea:Sumatra:New Hebrides
Seize all of China=Control of Manchuria:Hainan:Shensi:Yunnan:Szechwan:Suiyuyan:Kweichow:Hunan:Hopei:Shantung:Kwangsi:Kiangsu:Kiangsi:Jehol:Chahar:Anhwe:Tsinghai:Kansu
Seize Novgorod=Control
Seize Stalingrad=Control Volgograd
Seize Persia and Iraq=Control Iraq:Northwest Persia:Persia:Eastern Persia

Victory Notification will activate at beginning of Germans round 11 purchase.

Activates via “Map Options”

@taamvan Is this correct ?

@barnee

Is there a running summary or google doc of these rules changes somewhere, for someone that wants to run this setup on a physical board?

@vodot
Idk you would need to ask taamvan

How about making separate blue molds for France, instead of say, using Soviet Union (Russian) pieces painted blue? The regular color for A&A G40 for France? I think that it’s rather silly that ANZAC has its own molds and everyone else has updated sculpts, but not France. France gets knocked out, but later on, after liberation, she becomes a pain in the neck to Germany and Italy.

https://www.historicalboardgaming.com/France_c_209-2.html
Like these?

@Patchman123 said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

How about making separate blue molds for France, instead of say, using Soviet Union (Russian) pieces painted blue? The regular color for A&A G40 for France? I think that it’s rather silly that ANZAC has its own molds and everyone else has updated sculpts, but not France. France gets knocked out, but later on, after liberation, she becomes a pain in the neck to Germany and Italy.

When the 2nd edition of Europe 1940 / Pacific 1940 came out, I was happy about the various new sculpts they included (including the full distinct ANZAC sculpt set) and disappointed that France’s non-infantry units continued to be blue versions of the Soviet set…but I guess that the single positive aspect of France being short-changed in both the 1st and 2nd editions is that it creates room for a nice sculpt upgrade in a hypothetical future 3rd edition: a full distinct French sculpt set. France is the last player nation left in Global 1940 which has such a large deficit of nationally-distinct OOB sculpts, and it would be nice for that gap to be filled. Global 1940 2nd edition has three minor gaps involving other nations, and it would be nice for them to be filled too in a future 3rd edition, but for the moment the 1941 game provides the means to do so: it has a distinct British naval transport, a distinct Soviet aircraft carrier, and it has an American P-40 Warhawk fighter which can serve as China’s Flying Tiger unit. An interesting question would be what kind of significant sculpt upgrade in a hypothetical Pacific 1940 3rd edition could be provided to balance the significant sculpt upgrade which a full French set would be in a hypothetical Europe 1940 3rd edition? I can’t think of any obvious single major upgrade, but perhaps several small ones would do just as well – for example, filling the minor gaps I’ve already mentioned, plus giving China a distinct artillery piece, plus perhaps reviving the concepts from the original Pacific game to give the US a distinctly-coloured Marine unit.