G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)

I find the boxes work best in game without having to add merchant ships.
G40 map CB icons not far enough out in Atlantic. IMO and not enough Ger subs out there. Can damage inside box and 1 icp dam outside of box with sub touching box in another sz.

Do you plan on using the convoy box on g40 map only ? I do have another thing we had in game with cargo ships if u are interested in.
Each country starts with so many cargo ships. Then if u lost any and didn’t replace u were penalized a icp amount and ships moved 6.

@mAIOR

Hi, IDK if you read all available threads on Convoy HR.

This one was a kind of spin-off of Redesigned (at one time), you may scroll and read to get a glimpse of questions, issues and options around creating a Convoy raiding mechanics.
My own HR on that topic was mainly developed for 1942.2 and AA50 Ed.
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/25268/convoy-disruption-for-1942-2-g40-submarine-economic-warfare/130

It worked quite well with Submarine as the only unit able to raid on these smaller scale map. G40 is rather a different beast.

HTH,
Baron

@mAIOR said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

Yeah… My idea for my rework revolved around DD making an ASW check if subs decide to do a surprise attack. If successful, the submarines will be sunk.

So I want to have the ability to spend money on convoys and escorts and the uboats reducing that amount with successful attacks. Kind of bringing a bit more of the strategic humpf to this boardgame.

I like DDs with a 2:2 value as I think it is fitting. Submarines are downgraded to 1:1 but they will also cost a lot less like 4 or even 3.
Their impact will also be more over time than immediate.

Sooo many things to try out…

As a matter of fact, you are not downgrading Subs, it is quite the contrary. Going from A2 D1 Cost 6 to A1 D1 Cost 4, 1 hit. Is a blessing for them.

Reducing Submarine to low 4 or, even 3 IPCs, is a dangerous path to create unbalancing effects in Naval Combat. One issue you might encounter amongst power players which are looking for ways to win at all costs, is about the fodder unit. If any unit can be used for cheap fodder, no matter its combat capacity, you will use it as a shield around hard hitter. For instance, 5 Subs A1 D1 at 4 IPCs would provides 5 hits and 5 pips A/D for 20 IPCs. Compared to a single roll @4 for Battleship, with 2 hits. The real deal will be to purchase almost exclusively Subs around already existing units to protect them.

I’m not sure it would be the kind of Naval warfare you are looking for.

@baron-Münchhausen All ships will get prices adjusted. I just haven’t worked out other vessels yet. Submarines seem alright on a 3 or 4 cost. Their attrition is also higher. If they are found they will get sunk most often than not.

But you raised an interesting point. I need to probably lower their attack to zero. Submarines were mostly strategic weapons not operational and a submarine caught in the open by any military vessel was as good as sunk.

I didn’t read all threads on convoys no. These were ideas I came up with through playing and getting frustrated with the game. I find the convoy boxes that come with the maps really poor. In fact, they are in the worst possible place for subs as they are within air cover range which would make subs extremely vulnerable. As I said, I want to recreate the mid Atlantic gap and force the allies to deal with it or risk suffering moderate boxes (since escorted convoys would be a dangerous beast). I have begun designing some individual faction sheets with space for unit upgrades and I am adding a convoy box there. that way we can have some political decisions that happened in the period in a more abstracted way (convoy for bases).

@SS-GEN Do tell me more about cargo ships. That was my idea generally. Start with a bunch of counters that represent tonnage (UK fleet had about 30 million tons at war start) and my idea was that you needed at least 1/3rd of that in order not to suffer severe IC attrition and you need to spend IC to replenish it. So it mimicks the having to rebuild your merchant fleet to remain in the war and having the Americans have to provide for the slack for them to build merchant ships AFAP. This will mean that submarines will have a more strategic role. I was actually going to ignore the global convoy boxes as that would be the worst place to hunt for convoys as you would be under the air cover umbrella. You could intercept convoys anywhere in the North Atlantic provided you passed a check to find them and a check to evade escorts that can kill you). DDs as Hunter Killer groups would be another idea for extra ASW (basically abstracting carrier escorts).

EDIT: Oh, I haven’t thought about other versions… Funilly enough, I sold my Europe and Pacific copies a while ago (just wasn’t playing it and needed the space for other games) and still own my copy of 1942 which I hardly play because (and this is the same issue I have with global hence wanting to structure my house rules in a more concise fashion) it takes way too long for what it offers. I mean, for the time I can play a full A&A game (if I find people to play it with) I can do a game of Twilight Imperium or War of the Ring or Cataclysm…

The reason A&A pulls me back though… is that it has moments which are just brilliant and unique.

Like I remmember this 1942 game I played with some friends. I was the USA and I was focusing on Germany. And the Japanese player who was fumbling about the entire game makes this weird move where he moves an Aircraft carrier a cruiser and a couple of DDs with transports to Midway and I was left paralyzed.

I didn’t have enough strength to outright push him out and he was in striking range of continental US and I needed to deal with that but it was going to take me ages to mass a fleet where I needed it to counter it and of course I could just “waste” a build turn and just build a fleet from scratch to take him out but then the European theater would suffer and then Russia might really get into trouble but if I didn’t the Japanese player could probably reinforce the fleet and make it harder for me to boot him and I needed to reinforce the west coast anyway because he could strike with some half decent force but I also needed to keep pressure on Germany and, and and…

And that was one of the best gaming moments I ever had. It was borne out of complacency since the Japanese player was not very good and I was in a good position overall but it really felt “strategic” then.
So I don’t mind if my changes end up adding 2 more hours to a game as long as it keeps me hooked with more moments like this and it feels like there is more choice and player agency to it.

Well from your story that’s what I have in my game as far as so many things can happen. This is dec 41 setup for my game. Pic is Europe side in above post. This pic of Pacific. A ton of choices for japan to do turn 1.
Anyway I’ll post the cargo ship rules in a bit.
Also always feel a sub should get to pick target to but based on your idea they just gonna be cargo hunters in your game if they survive from being found. Fodder ya if C3-4 but if it doesn’t have no AD value in there then be useless with fleets I’m assuming here.

I’m trying to get a good g 40 map file and a 42 map file so maybe I can add some of these changes to game map.

I agree on convoys should be our mid Atlantic but Tac should be able to get to them subs too and not really figs unless u have a DD 1 to 1.
In my game if Tac misses sub then DD present gets depth shot. Sub lives it just dives. Subs can dive with DD present but this is another sub rule subject in another thread.

@SS-GEN That map is awesome. Where did you get it?

It was a buddy’s and now I just redid for my game with baron helping with some history and a few tweaks to it

Map on left what was his and map on right is what I just did

@SS-GEN That map is awesome!

Regarding subs:
Yeah, the idea is that they have no fleet use and are purely strategic weapons. If they can surprise fire at a battleship, they can. But if they get discovered in an ASW sweep, they are gone. I want attrition and for them to be cheap. I honestly tried the idea of naval searches being a thing and it works quite well. Since Britain’s initial fleet survives more often than not. This leads to Germany never being able to get off the back-foot naval wise unless a serious investment is made (and to be fair, this game starts far too late for a proper naval development cycle. We needed a game that would start at least in 1935 or 1936 for Germany to properly invest in a surface fleet but that of course brings other implications and this game is definitely not prepared for that yet).
I always wanted proper submarine and anti-submarine warfare in this game that would translate the strategic impact of the battle of the Atlantic. D-Day wouldn’t have happened if the German submarines weren’t pushed back and I would love to be able to represent that in this game… For now, I am happy if the battle for the Atlantic becomes one of the main focus for axis players instead of an afterthought.

EDIT: Regarding history, the Japanese did not use convoys. Hence the success of the American submarine campaign in the Pacific. The way I am thinking of implementing it is really to give a bonus in submarine warfare against the japanese.
Instead of finding convoys on a 3, it could be on a 4 or even a 5.

@mAIOR
I see where you are going. Redesigned developed a Strategic bomber with no combat capacity at 5 IPCs, D6 damage and works quite well, based on various playtest. Tactical bomber replaced it as the actual combat unit, but with a lesser range 4+1 instead of 6+1 with Air Base.

It can be possible to imagine Subs A0 D0 Cost 5 or 4 with special damage on Convoy.
What can replace Subs? IJN Subs were not much assigned to sink civilian cargos. US Navy ships were prioritized by Subs, for their demise.
What kind of naval battle do you see in Atlantic? What will replace combat active units, traditionally U-boats were a major part in it?

Here’s the cargo ship stuff.
You may take this and make it anyway you need to fit your game or just don’t use.
Cost 4 icps per cargo ship. Moves 3 spaces. For each cargo ship you lose cost you 5% penalty towards your income.
Once every one is at war you can transport 1 plane, 1 tank or 2 Artillery per cargo ship.
Only Destroyers and Escorts can defend cargo ships. Only L. Bombers, figs, subs & warships can attack cargo ships.
OK this stuff above you can change to more historical or what ever to fit game. I like the 3 move. Gives more time to get attacked. Maybe 2 move better fits your map szs.
Convoy routes.
UK-Canada 3 cargo ships
UK-S AF 2
S. AF- Iran 2
India-Aust 1
Grande-Bretagne 1

S. France -French Guyana 1
S. France- French West Africa 1

Ger-Sweden 1
Ger- Norway 1

Murmank-UK 1
Archangel- UK 1

S. Italy- Libya 1

Japan -Marshall 1
Japan - Carolinas 1
Japan- Marianars 1
Japan- China ? 1 Figure out
Japan - Thailand 1
Japan - Korea 1

E. US - Brazil 1
E. US - S. AF 2
W. US - Australia 2

• E. US - Murmank/Archangel 3
• E US - UK 2
• = only when USSR is at war can you use theses.
  Country on left side of chart is the starting points.

I never checked 100% on accurate these are. If a destination point is captured can land in a territory next to it.
As mentioned you can change any thing here to fit your game. For routes you could lay down popsicle sticks colored to your countrys color and use chips. Sharpie ? Colored tape ?
All I know is I used Painted transports from classic game for each country. I liked the look of them even to today’s transports.

Anyway thats that.

Edit. Each country starts with a certain number of cargo ships. For each one below your limit is when 5% kicks in so if you start with 5 and at start of turn you only have 3 and don’t buy 2 more receive 10% penalty. When all at war u have 2 less ships to send pieces

@baron-Münchhausen said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

@mAIOR
I see where you are going. Redesigned developed a Strategic bomber with no combat capacity at 5 IPCs, D6 damage and works quite well, based on various playtest. Tactical bomber replaced it as the actual combat unit, but with a lesser range 4+1 instead of 6+1 with Air Base.

It can be possible to imagine Subs A0 D0 Cost 5 or 4 with special damage on Convoy.
What can replace Subs? IJN Subs were not much assigned to sink civilian cargos. US Navy ships were prioritized by Subs, for their demise.
What kind of naval battle do you see in Atlantic? What will replace combat active units, traditionally U-boats were a major part in it?

You can still take a surprise attack roll against surface vessels so if you want, you can risk your submarine to do that. Maybe an unescorted BB is spotted or a carrier unaware. Of course attacking a fleet with DDs or a hunter killer group might not be in your best interest but you can do that if you so chose. I am thinking of leaving doctrinal issues for the player including Japanese player choosing to begin using convoy system or target american convoys (maybe a political roll is in order… damn it… You made me think of yet another thing).

I see the battle of the Atlantic as being a tonnage war as it was in real life. German U-Boats were not really focused on targeting the Royal Navy. Again, if you spot a wild Battleship unescorted, go do your surprise attack and sink it

I am beginning to regret coming here XD I came here with a few simple ideas and now my test list is already 3 pages long…

Great ideas though and I see them as being in line with what I want for this game.

@SS-GEN Very interesting idea. I will try it out. Again, it seems to go in line with what I am thinking for the game. I was thinking in more abstract terms but this is very interesting as in no planned convoy routes and you just do a roll anywhere to see if you find convoys or not. Truth is, sea areas are so large that pretty much all areas in the game board would’ve seen convoys (coming from America, Coming from the med, etc).

One practical question:
I was looking to buy a physical copy of Global 1940 again since It is easier to play testing a physical board than it is on a PC screen. However, the Anniversary edition caught my eye. It seems to have most of what I need but it is cheaper and it comes in one box. Do you guys think Global is still worth it (for me the 1940 start date is more interesting but it is not a deal breaker)?

@mAIOR

I’d get em both lol If you only want one, I’d go with Global as it’s bigger. More SZs etc…Or you can really go Big and get the HBG Global war :)

How are you testing on your computer ? Are you using triplea ?

@barnee I am testing using TTS (it is easier to replicate these changes). I did not know of HBG but the map looks amazing. The rules… I have my issues with them (lack of scale consistency being the biggest one). And I want to make these changes to regular A&A so I guess Global it will be (not to mention having to source every single piece for the armies is more work than it is worth… If they ever make bundles I might consider it).

Not to mention that claiming to have the biggest wargame of the genre when things like WiF (which I own) and War of the Pacific are around… hmmmmm

@mAIOR said

I am beginning to regret coming here XD I came here with a few simple ideas and now my test list is already 3 pages long…

Ha ha ha and it begins !

@mAIOR
Yea Anniversary is still a lot of fun to play. Doesn’t take quite as long and is easier on beginners. Man I’ve thought about getting WIF several times over the years but sadly I never did :( lol

I didn’t know what TTS was. Had to look it up lol Yea an actual board would be the way to go

@barnee WiF is the best game I never play ^^
Seriously, the game is very good. But I never play it because, if you think Axis and Allies takes long, WiF, with all bells and whistles, can take literally months. As in LITERAL monthS<— .

I do still have a copy of 1942 all the way back in Portugal (one of the reasons I sold my Eur+Pacific copy) but that is a bit far away hence thinking about rebuying global. The Anniversary edition looks like a good compromise but of course it starts in 1941 not 1940 and it is a smaller map. Though it has Italy and China which are two powers that make things interesting.

Basically I want my changes to make Axis and Allies a proper strategic game.

It’s alzz quiet on the front. Everybody’s play-testing !!

@SS-GEN

Canadian escort carrier just sank the last U-boat in rd 7 lol

@barnee said in G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions):

@SS-GEN

Canadian escort carrier just sank the last U-boat in rd 7 lol

That’s not right ! Retest please. Lol

@SS-GEN

There was 5 of them and a ASW plane off the cv lol. Hey they were chasing him for the last 3 RDs lol He did some damage too, besides tying up some needed defensive fodder LOL !!!