German bomber strategy - How to play and How to counter

I play over 50 live games a year, easily, and against a wide variety of opponents.  Inexperience is not an issue (I’m sure better players exist, but I can set up the board from memory at this point; I play a lot).

The bombers are not enough to hold back a massive Russian push as far as I’ve seen

I still fail to see how it can be done… lot’s of Russian tanks and mechs during the first few turns?  I’ve never had a problem pushing into Moscow with Dark Skies.  It seems to fall around G7 or so, slightly later if the allies fly a bunch of planes to reinforce it.  Once the Russian economy is in shambles due to bombing, it is just a matter of time.

Nippon,

I like what you’re saying, but I’d have to see you in action to validate.

Care for a game?

Nippon, in your games does Germany keep all their ground forces in one tight fist going toward smolensk, or does Germany spread itself out across a wide front from Leningrad to Ukraine?

Now I’m no fan of saying DS is a special, overpowered strategy, but I too can vouch for Germany being able to push Russia back into Moscow.

Maybe Nippon retreats the Siberians into Moscow and starts to push back RU7/RU8? Siberians are always a tough one to decide a strategy for. At least for me. If Russia cannot hold Moscow after RU8 then retreating the Siberians could be seriously considered. They will prolong the hold on moscow by at least 2 more turns, at the cost of more Japanese income… The lesser Russian income doesn’t really matter in this decision, because they can never produce 2AAA + 24INF (Siberians + Mongols) with the income from their eastern territories before turn 12 anyway. And the Siberians arrive in Moscow RU6-7 already. A lot sooner than RU12.
On top of that, if Russia has no income left anymore, Germany won’t recieve as much of a bonus after taking Moscow.

The way I see it, the German initial land force combined with Italian can openers AND the german FTR/TAC couples are enough to defend against Russian counterattacks till RU8. With Siberians in Moscow, approaching becomes more perilous. Also, the German offensive power of those land units coupled with the massive airstack is able to push Russia back into Moscow RU6; with a little help from the RAF, Russia can hold Bryansk but will have to retreat into Moscow once GE6 steps into Rostov. I haven’t yet calculated if it is wise for Russia to leave 6 to 7 INF in Rostov to prevent Italian can-openings, but I don’t think so because at that time Moscow will be raided and won’t produce >3INF per turn from RU4 or RU5 and Germany will produce 6MECH per turn.

So yes, I can see Moscow holding out for 2-3 turns longer with the help of the Siberians and another 2-3 turns if the UK is serious about sending FTR+TAC into Moscow, but counterattack? No. Only if Germany steps adjacent to Moscow too early (and without airsupport). But if Moscow can survive into turn ~12, that is also worth a whole lot. I think Germany won’t be able to seriously start pushing into the middle east as long as Moscow remains alive and kicking.

Then again, I might have gotten it all wrong, but always happy to learn new strategies…

3 full carriers = 108
4 destroyers = 32
airbase = 15
3 fighters = 30
Total:  185 ipcs, 40 defense strength, 19 hit points

Germans attack with 18 bombers and 8 other planes, losing ~10 planes = 110 ipcs

If you could have a couple of subs, this ratio of 1.7:1 can get a bit better.  If you are also sinking the Allied transports, the math gets even better.  You can probably get closer to a 2:1 trade.  The Axis certainly can afford that sort of economic trades.

If the Allies put even more ships off of Gibraltar, ignore them and counterattack wherever they land.  In the game that I am playing, the Allies have a big carrier fleet off of Gibraltar and a massive stack of ground units of Spain.  Germany can counter with 40 ground units + 25 planes if I ever step into Normandy.  He is laughing at the money that I had to waste building up my six carrier Navy.

@ShadowHAwk:

@Arthur:

3 full carriers = 108
4 destroyers = 32
airbase = 15
3 fighters = 30
Total:  185 ipcs, 40 defense strength, 19 hit points

Germans attack with 18 bombers and 8 other planes, losing ~10 planes = 110 ipcs

If you could have a couple of subs, this ratio of 1.7:1 can get a bit better.  If you are also sinking the Allied transports, the math gets even better.  You can probably get closer to a 2:1 trade.  The Axis certainly can afford that sort of economic trades.

If the Allies put even more ships off of Gibraltar, ignore them and counterattack wherever they land.  In the game that I am playing, the Allies have a big carrier fleet off of Gibraltar and a massive stack of ground units of Spain.  Germany can counter with 40 ground units + 25 planes if I ever step into Normandy.  He is laughing at the money that I had to waste building up my six carrier Navy.

Wondering where you got those 18 bombers from, depending on then the US is in the war this can be done turn 2 with some efford turn 3 with ease.

Now your planes cannot attack as they cannot land anywhere afterwards so your left with just bombers So 10 bombers vs 3 full carriers + a cruiser and 2 destroyers.
Ill put some trannies there just to take gibraltar and moroco so you cant land your planes.

Even if you got mutual annihilation with the fleet and maby even trade favorable 1 vs 1.2 i dont care you have lost 3 turns of german buys, russia did buy 3 turns so have a huge stack and there are US forces in afrika. And with no bombers to threathen me again i can buy fleet with UK or US without much protection and drop even more boots in europe or afrika what are you going to do about it, rebuild your bomber forces? How long will it last before russia starts knocking on your eastern door because you dont have enough troops to stop them.

So then in that case, Germany simply doesn’t attack your fleet. Why should they? Turn 2-3, US has no invasion force capable of threatening Germany. You just wasted your first few turns buying a useless navy, and now Japan is probably taking over the Pacific with your lack of Pacific buys.

Exactly, Amanntai.  I have had several opponents try building up a big US atlantic fleet on turns 2-3.  I ignored him and laughed my way to Japanese victory.  Japan will be out earning the combined US + India + ANZAC by turn 5.  At that point, victory is virtually assured.  Meanwhile Germany is slowly pushing its way into Russia, leaving behind a few troops to deal with possible amphibious invaders.

Gargantua, definitely down for a game sometime.  Perhaps this weekend?

Variance, Germany keeps their ground units together.  The issue is they cannot compete with Russia on that front, as the Russians are buying 10 ground units a turn.  Let’s look at it this way: Germany’s first three turns under this plan nets them 10 bombers with enough left to buy 5-8 ground units (please correct me if my math is wrong on this).  Russia should be able to buy 30 units easily (I like 7 artillery and 3 infantry in the first few rounds).  Germany cannot effectively beat that back AND use that air force to keep US and UK at bay.

I’ve mentioned my Allied strategy in other threads but I’ll do a quick recap: US turn 1 I buy a CV, DD and 4 transports in EUS.  If I saw Germany doing the bomber strategy I’d probably grab another carrier turn 2.  I’d have the UK move any surviving ships from round 1 over toward Canada and buy out of there (at least 1 carrier no doubt).  The allies could easily have an impressive fleet hanging out at Gibraltar or London by turn 3 or 4.  Germany is not beating back that fleet AND marching on Russia.  I respect the opinion of everyone on this board, but I don’t buy it guys.

Clerc, I don’t march back the Siberian troops.  What I like to do with them: Buryatia turn 1, Amur turn 2.  I make Japan react by A) attacking it or B) stacking Manchuria.  If they go with B, depending how the board looks, I’ll take Korea turn 3.  It’s a giant pain for Japan and slows them down a bit.

It seems a lot of the dark skies strategy relies on a premise I’ve never agreed with: if the Allies go KGF then Japan will win the game every time.

Yeah I don’t see it either guys.  I’m sure Nippon and I will keep working on it but we just don’t see how you deal with the massive Russian stack without adequate ground purchases.  Germany can only make it so far before they are forced back.  If all their fighters/tacs are sitting in Russia trying to protect the weak stack from a counter attack, they’re not threatening the Atlantic or Med.

Dark Skies is not intended as a strategy for KGF! If the United States spends all of their money on the first two rounds in the Atlantic, start building ground units as Germany and enjoy the victory in the Pacific.  Japan can by earning 45 PUs on J1, 57ish on J2, and around 70 on J3.  On J4, they can conquer India leading to ~80 PUs.  There is little or nothing that the Allies can do for these first four rounds except pray for lucky dice rolls. Don’t tell me you have some secret play to use the measly forces of India, China, and ANZAC to prevent this scripted attack (read Cow’s guide for J1 attack on Asia and the Philippines).

If the US has spent little in the Pacific for the first 2 rounds, they won’t be able to field a significant threat to Japan until turn 7!  By that time, Japan should be approaching an income of 90.  Not only will they be outproducing the US and ANZAC, but they have shorter supply lines and simpler attack coordination.  Perhaps you have been facing bad Japanese players who don’t know how to properly expand.

@IKE:

Yeah I don’t see it either guys.  I’m sure Nippon and I will keep working on it but we just don’t see how you deal with the massive Russian stack without adequate ground purchases.  Germany can only make it so far before they are forced back.  If all their fighters/tacs are sitting in Russia trying to protect the weak stack from a counter attack, they’re not threatening the Atlantic or Med.

The units Germany starts with is more than enough to hold Russia at bay for turns 2-3. After that, Dark Skies calls for only 1-2 Bombers a turn, with the rest going to ground buys. It isn’t like Dark Skies is 100% Bombers.

Even if Germany buys 1 Bomber per turn, they can still out buy Russia on ground units. How can Russia hold them back? Especially since the bombers purchased in Germany’s first 3 turns prevent the Western Allies from coming to Russia’s aid?

Shadow, I’m with you 100% US and UK can have a very respectable fleet put together by round 3.  If Germany sends its air force it’s probably a mutual annhilation, which almost always favors the Allies.

@Arthur:

Dark Skies is not intended as a strategy for KGF! If the United States spends all of their money on the first two rounds in the Atlantic, start building ground units as Germany and enjoy the victory in the Pacific.  Japan can by earning 45 PUs on J1, 57ish on J2, and around 70 on J3.  On J4, they can conquer India leading to ~80 PUs.  There is little or nothing that the Allies can do for these first four rounds except pray for lucky dice rolls. Don’t tell me you have some secret play to use the measly forces of India, China, and ANZAC to prevent this scripted attack (read Cow’s guide for J1 attack on Asia and the Philippines).Â

If the US has spent little in the Pacific for the first 2 rounds, they won’t be able to field a significant threat to Japan until turn 7!  By that time, Japan should be approaching an income of 90.  Not only will they be outproducing the US and ANZAC, but they have shorter supply lines and simpler attack coordination.  Perhaps you have been facing bad Japanese players who don’t know how to properly expand.

I don’t want to squirrel the topic, but I’m not a believer in the J1 attack.  I’ve seen it in action six times and the record is 1-4-1 (and this was following Cow’s guide step by step by step).

I say all of this in good fun and the spirit of debate:

It’s amazing to me that nobody can come to any conclusion other than “Everyone you play the game with must not know how to play country X.”

Between Ike living up the street, my Jersey and Westchester groups, we’re about 12 players deep with well over one thousand live games played between all of us.  We study the boards, utilize strategies posted, play test games (sometimes a couple of us will play three rounds of a strategy, start over, play three again with slight tweaks and then compare differences), have entire war-game weekends (heading to PA next Thurs-Sun where 7-9 of us will have two boards going) and can set the board up from memory.  We’re not amateurs.

Maybe you guys don’t play against strong Allied players.  It’s at least as likely as my group not knowing how to play the Axis, isn’t it?

@ShadowHAwk:

You can get away with 2-3 rounds of bombers which gives you around 10 bombers.

US can easy counter this with 2 carriers and 2 destroyers build round 1-2 with 1 airbase on gibraltar and 3 fighters or a UK carrier you will not destroy his fleet. And 10 bombers will not be enough to overcome the 15+ unit advantage russia has. Mutual annihilation is in favor for the russians as they produce closer to the front and they need to survive where germany needs to make ground.

How many times must it be said? If Germany cannot kill the fleet, they ignore it and the US wasted their IPCs. The Germans have no reason to attack a US turn 3 fleet.

Furthermore, after turn 3, Germany is putting most of it’s IPCs toward ground troops in Russia. Germany can outspend Russia easily and push Russia back. How can Russia win?

@amanntai:

@ShadowHAwk:

You can get away with 2-3 rounds of bombers which gives you around 10 bombers.

US can easy counter this with 2 carriers and 2 destroyers build round 1-2 with 1 airbase on gibraltar and 3 fighters or a UK carrier you will not destroy his fleet. And 10 bombers will not be enough to overcome the 15+ unit advantage russia has. Mutual annihilation is in favor for the russians as they produce closer to the front and they need to survive where germany needs to make ground.

How many times must it be said? If Germany cannot kill the fleet, they ignore it and the US wasted their IPCs. The Germans have no reason to attack a US turn 3 fleet.

Furthermore, after turn 3, Germany is putting most of it’s IPCs toward ground troops in Russia. Germany can outspend Russia easily and push Russia back. How can Russia win?

If Germany doesn’t attack the fleet, then the transports accompanying it can land in Europe (not to mention UK can easily keep the units coming after that).

@ShadowHAwk:

@amanntai:

@ShadowHAwk:

You can get away with 2-3 rounds of bombers which gives you around 10 bombers.

US can easy counter this with 2 carriers and 2 destroyers build round 1-2 with 1 airbase on gibraltar and 3 fighters or a UK carrier you will not destroy his fleet. And 10 bombers will not be enough to overcome the 15+ unit advantage russia has. Mutual annihilation is in favor for the russians as they produce closer to the front and they need to survive where germany needs to make ground.

How many times must it be said? If Germany cannot kill the fleet, they ignore it and the US wasted their IPCs. The Germans have no reason to attack a US turn 3 fleet.

Furthermore, after turn 3, Germany is putting most of it’s IPCs toward ground troops in Russia. Germany can outspend Russia easily and push Russia back. How can Russia win?

IF germany does not attack the fleet then the US will be in position to attack with the land forces in the transports.
Germany then has to face 4+ transports full of units and russia that has been building for 3 rounds in land forces.
And those transports will keep comming, and you know pretty well where a fleet can go from gibraltar in 1 turn.
Those 2 carriers are not wasted ( 4 fighters to support the invasion) and the cruiser is there at the start.

So those 10 bombers are they better VS russia then 20 inf 10 art that you could have bought?

You think 4 Transports of units will survive a counter attack by 10 Bombers + Land units and other planes? The fact is that by Turn 3, the US simply can’t build a large enough fleet and a large enough invasion force to survive a German attack without spending nothing in the Pacific.

Hmmm… landing 10 troops in Normandy is soooo scary.  That would require 4 soldiers plus the airforce to annihilate.  I’m not sure how Germany could spare so many soldiers.  It is such a long drive from West Germany to the beachheads. Wouldn’t it be horrible if the Allies dropped 16 troops and landed 5 planes to support it.  There surely is no possible way to defeat such a might invasion force.  Furthermore, I’ve lost so many games where Russia drives into Berlin on R5.  I can’t seem to find a tactic to prevent this crushing defeat.  Perhaps Cow can write a guide on defending Germany against the overwhelming Russian army.  Maybe I should buy 33 more infantry during the first two rounds and hide in my capitol.

In the meantime, I am confident that Japan would patiently wait for the US to start building in the Pacific before starting its own expansion.

You can build warships AND transports…

Let’s look at a couple of rounds of buys (as always, you’d need to see exactly what’s happening in that particular game to know exactly what to buy, but let’s try anyway)

US turn 1: CV, DD, 4 transports, place in EUS, move the two infantry in WUS to CUS and one extra plane to the carrier you just bought
US turn 2: 1 loaded transport, 1 inf, 1 CV in EUS, spend the rest in WUS (if you attack J1 then America will have even more money to spend and I’d probably add another 2 DD’s or a BB, but let’s leave it at 52 for now)

UK turn 1: 2 fighters, save 8 bucks (or buy a couple of units in London).  Move all surviving ships to Canada (everyone seems to handle the UK ships differently, so let’s say you end up with a C, DD and a transport over there)
UK turn 2: 2 CV, 1 DD in Canada (the DD if you didn’t spend that extra money on units)

So on turn 3 the US and UK can go to Gibraltar with 4 loaded carriers (using the fighters in UK), 2 cruisers, 2-3 DD’s, 6 loaded American transports, 1-2 loaded transports from Canada (depending on which ships survived).  If Germany has its air force in Western Germany then only their bombers will be able to make it (unless Italy took Gibraltar or Morocco, neither of which they’d keep once America heads over).

From there the Allies have plenty of options: hang in the channel and drop 14-16 troops and a fighter or two for good measure; take Norway or grab Southern France, go for Italy, etc.  Sure, if they move to 110 Germany can wipe them out, but at what cost?  If UK built another two fighters on its turn you’re looking at 18 units defending, 4 of which can take two hits.  Let’s look at how that plays out in battle:

All the ships and planes I mentioned above, plus the two UK just bought for London, and we’re looking at 58 as an attack factor (should be ten hits, rounding up).  Assuming Germany bought 2, 6, 2 bombers, has lost no planes so far and has every one of them in position to attack, then they have 12 str bombers, 5 tac and 5 fighters, right?  14 hits, rounding up.  Four carriers gone, 2 DD’s gone, 2 C’s gone, 2 fighters gone.  Allies still have 8 fighters left.

If Germany presses on they should wipe out all 8 of the remaining fighters, but they’ll lose 5 of their remaining bombers.
Giant allied fleet is wiped out, but Germany lost massive air power (the crux of their entire plan), the Allies are sitting in Normandy and Russia has nothing to worry about.

Again, all of this assumes Germany has lost zero planes so far, has all of their planes in positions to attack, the US did not collect its war income, etc.  (Someone argued that Germany may choose not to attack that fleet.  Fine, but now the allies are storming through Europe; next turn I’d drop every plane in Normandy and head back to EUS to reload).

Germany is not winning the game at this point; even though they’re still out-earning Russia they’ve lost too much while Russia has built 35-40 ground unit and on top of that they have to get the US out of Europe.  That allows the US to…

Go heavy on the other side.  I’ve argued this before but you can spend heavily in EUS for the first two turns and still be effective in the Pacific simply by returning the favor.

Turn 2: the remaining 19 (possibly more from a J1 attack, but again, let’s assume they had 52) I’d buy a carrier (loaded with the planes from Hawaii) and save 3. 
Turn 3: I’m likely spending the entire 73 (assuming we’re down two from the Philippines) over here now.  Loaded carrier, 3 DD’s, 2 subs. 
Turn 4: Let’s assume 70 to spend (possibly more from Normandy, Norway, etc) Let’s go another loaded carrier and 3 subs, spend a few bucks on the other end.

At the end of turn 4 the US has a solid fleet in the Pacific (four loaded carriers, a BB, couple of C’s, 5 DD’s and 6-7 subs) and is very likely holding onto a complex in Normandy, which can be reinforced by UK.  Add in the Siberian Russia troops hanging around to bug Japan (I like to put them all in Amur turn 2 and make Japan attack them, defend Korea and Manchuria or give up one of them) and this game is far from over.

Is this a sure-fire way to beat the Dark Skies Axis strategy?  There are no sure-fire wins in this game, but it’s definitely a solid approach.

You can’t beat back every Allied answer in Europe with “Well my planes would just wipe you out.”  Germany’s air force cannot be everywhere all at once.

You can’t beat back every Allied answer in the Pacific with “Well Japan would be too strong to take down by turn 4.”  Even after India falls (whenever that may be), Japan still has to go get that 6th victory city.  Not a gimme once the US is regularly spending heavy in the Pacific.

If Germany does not attack the fleet, the Allies are most certainly not “storming through Europe”.

Let’s assume that all 8 of your loaded transports are tank + inf, which offers the highest defensive power to your invasion force. Let’s assume none of them are destroyed in the invasion. Let’s assume you land all 4 of your UK carrier fighters and your French fighter in Normandy to defend.

So you have 8 Infantry, 8 Tanks, and 5 fighters defending. If Germany attacks with their 12 Bombers, 4 Tacs, 4 Fighters, and only 4 Land units, they have a 95% chance of victory! And this is with the Allies throwing everything they have into Normandy. If Germany uses just a couple more units, or if the Allies kept some of their fighters back or used some artillery or lost some units landing, they’d have an even lower survival chance.

@ShadowHAwk:

@amanntai:

If Germany does not attack the fleet, the Allies are most certainly not “storming through Europe”.

Let’s assume that all 8 of your loaded transports are tank + inf, which offers the highest defensive power to your invasion force. Let’s assume none of them are destroyed in the invasion. Let’s assume you land all 8 of your carrier fighters in Normandy to defend.

So you have 8 Infantry, 8 Tanks, and 8 fighters defending. If Germany attacks with their 12 Bombers, 4 Tacs, 4 Fighters, and only 4 Land units, they have a 70% chance of victory! And this is with the Allies throwing everything they have into Normandy. If Germany uses just a couple more units, or if the Allies kept some of their fighters back or used some artillery or lost some units landing, they’d have an even lower survival chance.

Why would i want to land in normandy? Why not just western germany if you have it lightly defended or norway. Or Rome also a verry nice city to invade.
From gibraltar i can hit a lot of area ill take what suits me best not what you can counter best.

Hit West Germany, same result. Can easily be countered. West Germany will also be better defended, so you’ll lose more troops than Normandy and be worse off. Norway might be harder to take back, but not if there are still German troops in Finland or if Germany has a couple of transports in the straits. And taking Norway would be that easy even if Germany hadn’t gone Dark Skies, so I don’t see how Germany did worse there.

Rome might be a problem if Italy doesn’t have enough troops to defend it.

The problem is that anywhere you can hit from Gibraltar, the bombers can counter attack.