Tom DeLay faces potential 2 year jail sentence…

Rove has taken it to an art-form

so hes bad because he is good at it?

If there is any justice in the world, Rove will be indicted for leaking Plume’s name.

if hes truly guilty of that, than i agree

I have wet dreams about Bush getting caught ordering the leak and resigning in disgrace. Tapes and all.

can girls have wet dreams?

I have wet dreams about Bush getting caught ordering the leak and resigning in disgrace. Tapes and all.

can girls have wet dreams?

Lol, I needed a metaphor a wargaming community could understand ;)

@Janus1:

Rove has taken it to an art-form

so hes bad because he is good at it?

He’s very good at underhanded techniques to destory political opponents. This is good or bad depending on your viewpoint. Generally, I think that insuinating that your opponent has an illegitimate child through push-polling (as what happened to McCain) is despicable, but others might applaud his imagination.

He’s very good at underhanded techniques to destory political opponents. This is good or bad depending on your viewpoint. Generally, I think that insuinating that your opponent has an illegitimate child through push-polling (as what happened to McCain) is despicable, but others might applaud his imagination.

well, i dislike mudslinging and dirty politics too, but its pragmatism, and hes damn good at being practical and effective. most politicians, for all their rhetoric, will use underhanded tactics if they help them, and the dems are just jealous because Rove is so good at it. im not saying that the allegations about valerie plame are false, and if they are true, he should be punished, but the dems HAVE been out for his blood since day one, so lets not pretend like they have entirely clean hands either.
i mean, look at kerry. invoking cheneys daughter was just dirty. it may have crossed the line as far as usefullness goes, because of the reaction, even by many dems. but it was the same tactic

@F_alk:

@Zooey72:

Gore knew that the majority of people who were too stupid to know how to punch a hole in a ballot had to be his.

The worst part of the last elections here was that the right started to show a similarily “democratic” conscious about their “enemies”.

If you can’t beat them fair and by arguments, denounce them …. that is exactly what Rove does, and not the “grass roots movement” that Linkon talked of (i hope it is not)

This is not an argument, I stated 2 facts. The military, the people who have taken it opon themselves to protect this country (reguardless of whatever war they are in, many I am sure thought somalia and serbia were not wars we should be in, but they fought anyway). They have charachter.

Gore knew a recount of the “intelectualy challegened” of the state would show that people who could not master the art of punching a hole in a card would be people who voted for him.

As far as not being able to beat them in an argument. I have a college degree, I think I can support my reason for voting the way I do a lot better than the people of florida who just could not figure out that darn tricky punch card! They sure are confusing aren’t they?

I’m not saying there aren’t idiots on the right, but at least our idiots know how to vote.

The left loves to make themselves out as victems, maybe they should start a support group for the punch card challenged. Or maybe have some classes down there comeplete with cards and punchers. They can get a little certificate after compeltion of the class. Probably the best thing people that stupid could put on a resume.

Ahh, so Bush got the “intellectual” vote, eh? A lot of things come to mind when you mention the South. Genius is not one of them.

you should take your sig a too heart a little bit more than you do

@Janus1:

you should take your sig a too heart a little bit more than you do

What, you can’t love stupid people? Anyway, Bush got the fundamentalist Christian vote, which has always puzzled me.

1, Christians should be pacifists, and I can’t understand how they can vote for a fellow Christian who invaded a nation and killed tens of thousands of innocent people. That’s a big no-no, according to everything Jesus teaches. And 2, fundamentalists of any religion aren’t exactly the best critical thinkers in the world. My in-laws are almost all Mormon and almost as a rule you can’t talk to them critically about their religion. You get the intellectual euquivalent of putting hands over ears and saying “nanananana”

I have wet dreams about Bush getting caught ordering the leak and resigning in disgrace. Tapes and all.

and 3, Christians shouldnt wish harm or misery on their neighbors, and you are saying here that you would revel in Bush’s disgrace.

@Janus1:

I have wet dreams about Bush getting caught ordering the leak and resigning in disgrace. Tapes and all.

and 3, Christians shouldnt wish harm or misery on their neighbors, and you are saying here that you would revel in Bush’s disgrace.

That’s true, but I’m only human. And are you trying to tell me that you won’t feel just a little guilty pleasure when Hussein is found guility and most likely executed for crimes against humanity?

im not a christian, im an atheist. i have no guiding moral principles that i am supposed to follow

@Janus1:

im not a christian, im an atheist. i have no guiding moral principles that i am supposed to follow

Just because you’re an atheist doesn’t mean you’re a nihilist. Plenty of atheists have a moral standard they try to live up to (Kant tried to ground morality in pure reason, and in metaethics, there is the belief that the truths of morality are like the truths of mathematics). Are you saying the only thing stopping you from robbing a bank or murdering someone for profit is the fear of getting caught?

@F_alk:

@Zooey72:

This is not an argument, I stated 2 facts.

How do you know what another person knows? Psychic?
The other part of your sentence … i must believe that as you seem to be part of the group that voted for Gore.

… “intelectualy challegened” … I have a college degree… victems … comeplete … compeltion

Gore “found” votes when they did the recount of people too stupid to use a punch card. That is how I know. And how you know as well (look, I started a sentence with “and”… my grammar is horrible… focus on that since you can’t dispute the facts of what I am saying. I post on a forum for entertainment, I don’t spell or grammar check. But since you KNOW I am right, you focus on spelling. Well, “F_alk” it seems you don’t know how to spell falk correctly. Get the point?)

And I never said Bush got the intelectual vote. I live in TN, we are as red as it gets, and there are plenty of people down here that can’t find thier ass with both hands. Is it expliotive, yes… But I have seen equaly exploitive things on the left. I lived most of my life in IL. and have worked with/known quite a few black people. The left exploits the “victemhood” of minorities for votes. When I was working in a call center, all but a handfull of black people seriously thought that the government made AIDS to kill off black people. I see Ferakawn (not even gonig to attempt to spell that - you know who I mean) telling people that the government blew up the levees during katrina. And that is the more rational stuff.

I’ll go toe to toe with you on the gospel marry, I know it. I never claimed to be a christian because there is a big difference between following christ and going to church. I have learned a lot from the Gospel, I don’t follow it comepletely… but it does offer wisdom. But before you start “throwing stones” at the christians, you don’t follow the gospel Komepletely (OMG, A SPELLING ERROR!!! MY ARGUMENT IS RUINED!) either. Jesus said that if you want to be perfect that you should give away everything you own and follow him. You have to be on a computer to post on forums… so I am assuming you still have stuff.

I will go so far as to say the left probably is closer to what Jesus preached than the right. Welfare - give things away. Illegal Aliens - give things away. Don’t defend yourself - turn the other cheek. The welfare state means an impovrished lifestyle, and that is what Jesus preached. I think the right has the abortion issue on its side… but that’s about it.

Although I respect christ and his teachings, I am not going to take it on faith that I am going to be fed, clothed and housed from god just because God loves me more than a bird (if you know the gospel, you know what I am talking about).

Just because you’re an atheist doesn’t mean you’re a nihilist. Plenty of atheists have a moral standard they try to live up to (Kant tried to ground morality in pure reason, and in metaethics, there is the belief that the truths of morality are like the truths of mathematics). Are you saying the only thing stopping you from robbing a bank or murdering someone for profit is the fear of getting caught?

not necessarily. i have morals, but they are not christian morals. and im a moral relativist, so i have my own sense of right and wrong, not one based on religion, or some “natural law”. as to kant, i dont subscribe to his belief.

an intentional spelling mistake just makes you look bad Zooey. its not that your argument is automatically invalid, but it discredits you.

I did that to make a point. I am not going to spell check so that Falk can no longer nitpick about spelling mistakes. Me caring validates him for pointing it out in the first place. The intentional mistakes were put there to show how weak his argument is since the biggest falt he can make with my argument is a typo. That is just an inch shy of saying “hey, isn’t Zooey a girls name? You must be a fag”. Or something else childish like that.

@Janus1:

Just because you’re an atheist doesn’t mean you’re a nihilist. Plenty of atheists have a moral standard they try to live up to (Kant tried to ground morality in pure reason, and in metaethics, there is the belief that the truths of morality are like the truths of mathematics). Are you saying the only thing stopping you from robbing a bank or murdering someone for profit is the fear of getting caught?

not necessarily. i have morals, but they are not christian morals. and im a moral relativist, so i have my own sense of right and wrong, not one based on religion, or some “natural law”. as to kant, i dont subscribe to his belief.

As a relatavist, you can’t even say Saddam was a bad guy. The best you can do is say, “Well, I personally wouldn’t have done that…” Relatavism always seems to fall apart when you ask the relatavist, “Is it wrong to rape a child?” and they respond “Well, it depends…”. Some things just seem universally wrong.

But a moral absolutist also runs into some similar problems. I’ve read a bit about a compromise position: some moral truths are universal, while some are relative based on culture, belief systems, etc.

I’ll go toe to toe with you on the gospel marry, I know it. I never claimed to be a christian because there is a big difference between following christ and going to church. I have learned a lot from the Gospel, I don’t follow it comepletely… but it does offer wisdom. But before you start “throwing stones” at the christians, you don’t follow the gospel Komepletely (OMG, A SPELLING ERROR!!! MY ARGUMENT IS RUINED!) either. Jesus said that if you want to be perfect that you should give away everything you own and follow him. You have to be on a computer to post on forums… so I am assuming you still have stuff.

I will go so far as to say the left probably is closer to what Jesus preached than the right. Welfare - give things away. Illegal Aliens - give things away. Don’t defend yourself - turn the other cheek. The welfare state means an impovrished lifestyle, and that is what Jesus preached. I think the right has the abortion issue on its side… but that’s about it.

Although I respect christ and his teachings, I am not going to take it on faith that I am going to be fed, clothed and housed from god just because God loves me more than a bird (if you know the gospel, you know what I am talking about).

I just know what I read as well. The role-model for Christians is Jesus. Jesus repeatedly condemned violence and even said you should comfort and aid thy enemy. Now I know no one can be Jesus, but voting for Bush? How can a self-respecting Christian vote for a war-monger? That’s not even a hard choice to make (like resisting the temptation to hit someone back). Bush = preemptive war and dead innocent people. You can’t get much more opposite to Jesus’s teachings than that.

@Zooey72:

I did that to make a point. I am not going to spell check so that Falk can no longer nitpick about spelling mistakes. Me caring validates him for pointing it out in the first place. The intentional mistakes were put there to show how weak his argument is since the biggest falt he can make with my argument is a typo. That is just an inch shy of saying “hey, isn’t Zooey a girls name? You must be a fag”. Or something else childish like that.

You missed the point.
Somehow having difficulty with punching in ballot cards makes one an idiot, whereas copious spelling mistakes and terrible grammer by a college graduate makes for some pretty serious whining when pointed out by someone else.
IMO - the fact that you are too lazy/incompetant to write properly makes for an interesting visual when you make fun of other people, using their mistake as a basis for an argument.

As a relatavist, you can’t even say Saddam was a bad guy. The best you can do is say, “Well, I personally wouldn’t have done that…” Relatavism always seems to fall apart when you ask the relatavist, “Is it wrong to rape a child?” and they respond “Well, it depends…”. Some things just seem universally wrong.

thats not true at all. i can say he was a bad guy, based on my standards.
and universal arguments always fall apart when you ask WHY something is universally wrong. they either respond “well, uh…because it seems like it”, or “because of God/natural law”. but thats not an answer at all. for one thing, it requires belief in one of those things, which not everyone has, so youve just made a relativist argument yourself.

I’ve read a bit about a compromise position: some moral truths are universal, while some are relative based on culture, belief systems, etc.

thats interesting, because as a christian, there is only one morality that is true for you.
anyway, this runs into problems, because whats universal? murder, you would probably say. but what constitutes murder? intent? intent with malice? and what else would be considered a universal moral? what if i think abortion is murder, but you dont (i actually dont, and you may, im not sure)? how do we know who is right? we have the same cultural background, so its not a culturally based relative moral, is it? its universal in your system? but who is right? how are we to know?

consider murder again. hobbes says that in the state of nature, might literally makes right (im stronger than you, so your food is now mine), and morals are nonexistant, meaning whatever you can do, you should, if you want to. mankind forms societies to elevate themselves from this primal state, so that its possible for people to peacefully coexist, without worrying they will be clubbed to death over their french fries at lunch time.
the notion of murder being wrong arises from this. its a practical consideration taken by man that killing each other is wrong, so they can establish a society. and different cultures formed different rules about what is allowable (many societies do, or did, practice ritualistic slayings). these do not come from some underlying moral principle, but for strictly pragmatic reasons. morality is an artificial construct, not a natural guiding force that determines rightness and wrongness in the world.