How to save Italian fleet

Hopefully I will get an opponent that will want to play it out someday. :)

Yeah,
I have found out that against any strong, working axis strategy it is hard to find allied players that ‘want to play it out’.
A lot of allied players (that I know personally) want to defeat the axis in 7 to 9 turns max. If they can’t, they loose hope and give up.
I can rave about that for quite a while as I believe it takes at least 14 turns to get an idea who will win the game, longer if you want a clear, undisputable victor :roll:. I think most people here on the forum more or less agree with me on this one so I won’t  :wink:.

Depending on WHEN you take London with 5 German units, you can just dedicate the treasury and a couple more transport runs to make it defensible…obviously you have the transports.

@Cmdr:

Depending on WHEN you take London with 5 German units, you can just dedicate the treasury and a couple more transport runs to make it defensible…obviously you have the transports.

And don’t forget the London IC. That’s an extra 3 units per round Germany can drop there just for defense.

@ItIsILeClerc:

Yeah,
I have found out that against any strong, working axis strategy it is hard to find allied players that ‘want to play it out’.
A lot of allied players (that I know personally) want to defeat the axis in 7 to 9 turns max. If they can’t, they loose hope and give up.
I can rave about that for quite a while as I believe it takes at least 14 turns to get an idea who will win the game, longer if you want a clear, undisputable victor :roll:. I think most people here on the forum more or less agree with me on this one so I won’t  :wink:.

We almost always play the game out, unless it is absurdly obvious who is going to win. I have mentioned this before – in most of our games, Axis victories tend to be shorter games, around 8-10 rounds. Allied victories tend to take longer, around 12-15 rounds.
If you have the same people playing the same countries, I could see why they might not want to see it to the end. That’s one reason we rotate countries. At the setup, we use the FMG combat dice and take one for each major nation. We then take turns rolling them all and whichever dice come up with the national symbol, the person rolling gets that country. If more than one comes up, then that person gets to choose. The last one will get whatever country is left.
So, one person could be Russia this game and get beaten up by Germany. Next game they might end up being Germany and get to do some of the beating.
If all 6 of us get together, then the players are: USA/France, USSR/China, UK/ANZAC, Germany, Japan and Italy. If there are less of us, then of course more countries need to be combined. Sometimes Germany and Italy will be paired up. One time we had one player playing USA/China/France/ANZAC. That player seemed to be constantly busy.

Agree with you, knp!
Though in our group there’s usually some people that want to try some sort of strategy and they want to play a certain group of major powers. The rest just fills in the empty spots.

Truth be told, in our group I see the axis always win when it is a team versus team game (so far).
Playing 1v1 against the strongest players in our group though, I’ d say the allies have a better bargain than the axis, no matter who plays what. From my personal experience.

Looks like even the smallest mismatch in strategies will have the allies loose <–So easily achieved in a team…

But allright… how to save the Italian fleet?
I’ll keep saying it: it cannot be saved if Italy wants to do something with it, other than cowering in Taranto’s air umbrella. At least not without bleeding too badly somewhere else. Axis make your choice  :wink:.

Well, if you are lucky enough to keep the 97 fleet, even if you have to keep all your fleet hiding in 97 under air cover, at least then you aren’t getting convoy raided to death there. So that’s something useful they are doing at least :)

I have found usually if UK doesn’t do a Taranto raid, the Axis usually have the Med cleared of Allied ships by round 2. Whatever ships survive clearing out Allied ships will usually get sunk by RAF units in the next couple of rounds or so which makes it hard for Italy to keep transports around to get land units over to Africa, but with no Allied ships in the Med, the Italian fleet kind of served it’s purpose. That’s an extra $5 to Italy for at least the next several rounds.
It USA has decided on a heavy Atlantic strategy, once they get over there Italy will probably lose it’s Med NO, but that will be the least of their worries by then.

@knp7765:

I have found usually if UK doesn’t do a Taranto raid, the Axis usually have the Med cleared of Allied ships by round 2. Whatever ships survive clearing out Allied ships will usually get sunk by RAF units in the next couple of rounds or so which makes it hard for Italy to keep transports around to get land units over to Africa, but with no Allied ships in the Med, the Italian fleet kind of served it’s purpose. That’s an extra $5 to Italy for at least the next several rounds.
It USA has decided on a heavy Atlantic strategy, once they get over there Italy will probably lose it’s Med NO, but that will be the least of their worries by then.

You should see my current game against wittman. I didn’t attack his Taranto fleet, Italians still have a big fleet but they’re locked at the docks, they lost all africa and germany even buffed them with a carrier and a dd.

@Noll:

@knp7765:

I have found usually if UK doesn’t do a Taranto raid, the Axis usually have the Med cleared of Allied ships by round 2. Whatever ships survive clearing out Allied ships will usually get sunk by RAF units in the next couple of rounds or so which makes it hard for Italy to keep transports around to get land units over to Africa, but with no Allied ships in the Med, the Italian fleet kind of served it’s purpose. That’s an extra $5 to Italy for at least the next several rounds.
It USA has decided on a heavy Atlantic strategy, once they get over there Italy will probably lose it’s Med NO, but that will be the least of their worries by then.

You should see my current game against wittman. I didn’t attack his Taranto fleet, Italians still have a big fleet but they’re locked at the docks, they lost all africa and germany even buffed them with a carrier and a dd.

Big RAF in the Med?

I currently have only 3 UK fighters in the med (in Gibraltar, with airbase), defending a fleet made by the BB, CR and DD from the pacific (we are at round7 or so), plus 1 more UK BB, 1 russian SS and a single american carrier with 2 american fighters.

The fleet is so “small” (it’s small for a turn7 fleet) cause I have another fleet keeping nowray and denmark in allied control in the north.

The point is: turn#1 I didn’t attack Taranto. I killed malta and moved my UK fleet in 92.
He decided to sink that fleet with the german airforce, resulting in an almost total annihilation of the german air. (I had Algeria very well protected, so he resorted to buy a carrier in Southern France to land 2 more air to support that attack. He had 2 or 3 air in SITA + 2 fighters from Germany + 2 bombers on it). This did let me build small fleet cause there’s no more air danger in europe. So I bought few American navy in the atlantic in order to “unlock” UK’s coastal landings pretty early.
Italian were able to conserve and build more fleet, I even had to let them get Egypt for 1 turn, but I was in position to take it back and by that time, my new allied fleet was sitting in gibraltar.

@Noll:

@knp7765:

I have found usually if UK doesn’t do a Taranto raid, the Axis usually have the Med cleared of Allied ships by round 2. Whatever ships survive clearing out Allied ships will usually get sunk by RAF units in the next couple of rounds or so which makes it hard for Italy to keep transports around to get land units over to Africa, but with no Allied ships in the Med, the Italian fleet kind of served it’s purpose. That’s an extra $5 to Italy for at least the next several rounds.
It USA has decided on a heavy Atlantic strategy, once they get over there Italy will probably lose it’s Med NO, but that will be the least of their worries by then.

You should see my current game against wittman. I didn’t attack his Taranto fleet, Italians still have a big fleet but they’re locked at the docks, they lost all africa and germany even buffed them with a carrier and a dd.

B#####d!
Am still reeling from the shock of it my friend.
And annoyed I cannot break the impasse. But I do not give up…

@Noll:

I currently have only 3 UK fighters in the med (in Gibraltar, with airbase), defending a fleet made by the BB, CR and DD from the pacific (we are at round7 or so), plus 1 more UK BB, 1 russian SS and a single american carrier with 2 american fighters.

The fleet is so “small” (it’s small for a turn7 fleet) cause I have another fleet keeping nowray and denmark in allied control in the north.

The point is: turn#1 I didn’t attack Taranto. I killed malta and moved my UK fleet in 92.
He decided to sink that fleet with the german airforce, resulting in an almost total annihilation of the german air. (I had Algeria very well protected, so he resorted to buy a carrier in Southern France to land 2 more air to support that attack. He had 2 or 3 air in SITA + 2 fighters from Germany + 2 bombers on it). This did let me build small fleet cause there’s no more air danger in europe. So I bought few American navy in the atlantic in order to “unlock” UK’s coastal landings pretty early.
Italian were able to conserve and build more fleet, I even had to let them get Egypt for 1 turn, but I was in position to take it back and by that time, my new allied fleet was sitting in gibraltar.

Goodness gracious!
With the risk of going off-topic, but does this mean the Russians in your game are laughing at the Germans?? I mean, the luftwaffe almost totally annihilated… I would expect Russia to be safe (one of the reasons I tend to only curse the RN in the med with Germany but forego attacking it, unless I can expect just 1 or 2 air losses  :wink:)…

@ItIsILeClerc:

@Noll:

I currently have only 3 UK fighters in the med (in Gibraltar, with airbase), defending a fleet made by the BB, CR and DD from the pacific (we are at round7 or so), plus 1 more UK BB, 1 russian SS and a single american carrier with 2 american fighters.

The fleet is so “small” (it’s small for a turn7 fleet) cause I have another fleet keeping nowray and denmark in allied control in the north.

The point is: turn#1 I didn’t attack Taranto. I killed malta and moved my UK fleet in 92.
He decided to sink that fleet with the german airforce, resulting in an almost total annihilation of the german air. (I had Algeria very well protected, so he resorted to buy a carrier in Southern France to land 2 more air to support that attack. He had 2 or 3 air in SITA + 2 fighters from Germany + 2 bombers on it). This did let me build small fleet cause there’s no more air danger in europe. So I bought few American navy in the atlantic in order to “unlock” UK’s coastal landings pretty early.
Italian were able to conserve and build more fleet, I even had to let them get Egypt for 1 turn, but I was in position to take it back and by that time, my new allied fleet was sitting in gibraltar.

Goodness gracious!
With the risk of going off-topic, but does this mean the Russians in your game are laughing at the Germans?? I mean, the luftwaffe almost totally annihilated… I would expect Russia to be safe (one of the reasons I tend to only curse the RN in the med with Germany but forego attacking it, unless I can expect just 1 or 2 air losses  :wink:)…

Yeah Russia is in an excellent shape.

Helped by a ridiculous rule which gives it 9-15 in NOs for owning worthless, or 1IPC,
Italian African possessions.
Countries inhabited by peoples who would not abandon Islam for Communism.

Pertinently, it was coupled with a J2, which enabled the US to move on Africa/Europe earlier than usual. This will always disadvantage the Euro Axis.

@wittmann:

Helped by a ridiculous rule which gives it 9-15 in NOs for owning worthless, or 1IPC,
Italian African possessions.
Countries inhabited by peoples who would not abandon Islam for Communism.

Pertinently, it was coupled with a J2, which enabled the US to move on Africa/Europe earlier than usual. This will always disadvantage the Euro Axis.

So witt it sounds like the allies have cracked the code, or you’re a spy for the them (keep giving the axis bad advice) lol

It must be that French woman I have been sleeping with.
Will have to have her shot.
Pity; the wife did not know about her. @WILD:

@wittmann:

Helped by a ridiculous rule which gives it 9-15 in NOs for owning worthless, or 1IPC,
Italian African possessions.
Countries inhabited by peoples who would not abandon Islam for Communism.

Pertinently, it was coupled with a J2, which enabled the US to move on Africa/Europe earlier than usual. This will always disadvantage the Euro Axis.

So witt it sounds like the allies have cracked the code, or you’re a spy for the them (keep giving the axis bad advice) lol

@wittmann:

Helped by a ridiculous rule which gives it 9-15 in NOs for owning worthless, or 1IPC,
Italian African possessions.
Countries inhabited by peoples who would not abandon Islam for Communism.

Pertinently, it was coupled with a J2, which enabled the US to move on Africa/Europe earlier than usual. This will always disadvantage the Euro Axis.

I never liked that rule. The thought of Russian units down in Ethiopia and Tobruk just rankles me, even worse that they get 3 IPCs per round for each of them. That’s why we created a house rule where it only applies to territories within continental Europe and Scandanavia. NO African territories, NO Middle-Eastern territories and NO Islands (Sicily, Sardinia, Crete). We do allow Turkey in this but only if it is occupied by Axis first, same with any other strict or pro-allied neutrals. Russia can’t get a 3 IPC bonus by attacking Turkey and turning the other neutrals pro-Axis.

So how is Japan doing in the Pacific?

Might take India on J8. Japanese income not great. Failed to recapture the last island, which was unexpected and a blow. China just reactivated with an income of 2.
I was more hopeful, but final VP might be out of reach now.
I don’t like to whine, but luck probably not with me sufficiently.
Would be surprised if I pull off a victory.

@knp7765:

We almost always play the game out, unless it is absurdly obvious who is going to win. I have mentioned this before – in most of our games, Axis victories tend to be shorter games, around 8-10 rounds. Allied victories tend to take longer, around 12-15 rounds.
If you have the same people playing the same countries, I could see why they might not want to see it to the end. That’s one reason we rotate countries. At the setup, we use the FMG combat dice and take one for each major nation. We then take turns rolling them all and whichever dice come up with the national symbol, the person rolling gets that country. If more than one comes up, then that person gets to choose. The last one will get whatever country is left.
So, one person could be Russia this game and get beaten up by Germany. Next game they might end up being Germany and get to do some of the beating.
If all 6 of us get together, then the players are: USA/France, USSR/China, UK/ANZAC, Germany, Japan and Italy. If there are less of us, then of course more countries need to be combined. Sometimes Germany and Italy will be paired up. One time we had one player playing USA/China/France/ANZAC. That player seemed to be constantly busy.

We draw control markers out of a cup to see who plays what country

Back on topic… I think that Italy must buy a carrier on round 2 if they can afford it. I usually buy a fighter round 1.  You can buy a carrier and place your 2 Italian planes on the carrier and leave the 3rd to scramble with 2 German planes.  If they wiped your navy in 97 you might need Germany to build a CV as well or swing the navy they have in 112 down to Gib on round 2.  That’s assuming GB does not block Germany’s navy.