How to save Italian fleet

How bad would it be to divert the German Strategic Bombers away from the British fleet, instead hitting SZs 91, 109 and 111?  Instead, sending the bombers after the French navy in SZ 93?

You may even be able to send 2 or 3 German fighters to S. Italy to use for Cover Air Patrol which means the British can attack, you can scramble to maximize dmg to them, and not lose the Italian Air Force (which I suspect is one reason England hopes for scrambles, to destroy those planes as well.)

Just a thought…feel free to poke holes, I didn’t test it, just thinking about it.

@Cmdr:

How bad would it be to divert the German Strategic Bombers away from the British fleet, instead hitting SZs 91, 109 and 111?  Instead, sending the bombers after the French navy in SZ 93?

You may even be able to send 2 or 3 German fighters to S. Italy to use for Cover Air Patrol which means the British can attack, you can scramble to maximize dmg to them, and not lose the Italian Air Force (which I suspect is one reason England hopes for scrambles, to destroy those planes as well.)

Just a thought…feel free to poke holes, I didn’t test it, just thinking about it.

You can send the German Strat bombers against the French, but you can only hit 110 or 111 on G1… you cannot hit both without the bombers (or at least not safely).

Only hitting one sea zone or the other (110 or 111) with the Germans is not a bad move.  It frees up the German airforce to do other things on G1 (such as killing the french fleet and destroying the UK cruiser in sz 91).

How are you reaching SZ91 with planes on G1?  You can hit it with subs but I don’t think the planes can reach it.

I have found that you can legally move 2 strategic bombers and 1 tactical bomber to SZ 91 (French Cruiser and Destroyer) which should result in the loss of the tactical bomber and no strategic bombers lost.

If you give up the hit on SZ 110 (because there are a lot of planes that can scramble there) you can hit SZs: 91, 93, 106 and 111 with enough movement points left to land 3 German planes in S. Italy which gives you the option of scrambling 3 non-Italian planes if England attacks.  The idea there is to actually scramble to maximize dmg to the British fleet and not lose the Italian air force giving them more punch in the Med later.

But it might be a dumb idea too. :P  Just looking for ways to make life really annoying for England in the Med.

Killing German air is still a win/win for the UK if U have german planes scramble in 97.

Yes, but which is more win/win for England?

I would say Italian Air is more important than German Air and if you have the option to scramble all 3 planes as German it may be better off.  Horrible odds either way, but at least England won’t get the Italian planes and may decide that it’s not worth it at all if there’s no chance for Italian planes…

I mean, that would probably be the best possible option to save the Italian fleet…

• 2 Subs at the Cruiser in SZ 93
• 2 Strat + 1 Tac to SZ 91 to sink the French fleet
• 3 German fighters in S. Italy as a threat

Unless I am missing something else to hurl at England.

Trading allied (French) ships for German air is usually bad news for the axis cause.

It is a bit of a gambit with the dice of course, but combined with not hitting sz110, the larger part of the Italian Navy may have been saved (for a couple of turns only anyway) by allowing the RN more ships.
After reorganizing those ships will come back to haunt the axis, whilst the RAF, combined with some (or all) Indian and South African ships, kills the Italian navy anyway a couple of turns later. I really agree with knp about this.

@Cmdr:

Yes, but which is more win/win for England?

I would say Italian Air is more important than German Air and if you have the option to scramble all 3 planes as German it may be better off.  Horrible odds either way, but at least England won’t get the Italian planes and may decide that it’s not worth it at all if there’s no chance for Italian planes…

I mean, that would probably be the best possible option to save the Italian fleet…

• 2 Subs at the Cruiser in SZ 91
• 2 Strat + 1 Tac to SZ 93 to sink the French fleet
• 3 German fighters in S. Italy as a threat

Unless I am missing something else to hurl at England.

Leaving the UK fleet in 110 alive helps to make up for it.  Allows the allies to get a stronger combined fleet going faster.  Uk can go to 92 and be very hard to kill.

Either way, Germany losing planes helps russia to stay alive longer and makes it harder for Germany to support italian gains and counter allied landings.  Even in the even of a 97 scramble, UK usually wins with about 3 planes surviving anyway.

Nice catch on the sz 91/93 mix up ghr2.

Personally I wouldn’t consider raising 3 German planes to save the Italian ftrs in sz97. Would be better to use Luftwaffe in a counter attack to knock out the UK Med fleet IMO. Might scramble 1 G, and 2 IT though depending on how much UK sends to sz97, and if I’m felling lucky. Preserving German air is a high priority.

I know attacking the French in sz93 instead of the Brits sz 110 on G1 might help the Italians clear the med (get their NO), but I just can’t see leaving the BB and 2 cruisers in sz110 (42 IPCs). It allows the UK to recover too quickly, and they will be threatening your shores well ahead of schedule (also allows the US to concentrate more in the Pac in a global game). Leaving sz110 will also give the UK more of a safety blanket, because the treat of Sea Lion is even more diminished. Plus they will have more fleet on their turn, so wouldn’t that make the UK med fleet even more expendable when hitting the Italians?

I know that buying a carrier G1 slows down Barbarossa, but it could help to keep UK fighters in London UK1. Later in the game a beefed up Baltic fleet will force the allies to build a few more ships, and help you hold on to Norway.

I would also consider strafing Yugo, and maybe Paris leaving them for the Italians. The 19 IPCs Paris bounty and 4 IPC per turn for France will defiantly help rebuild the Italian fleet. You can also use the extra income to send Italians to the Russian front to can opener, or push into Caucasus/Mid East Oil so although it isn’t German income, it can be used against Russia.

@WILD:

Nice catch on the sz 91/93 mix up ghr2.

Personally I wouldn’t consider raising 3 German planes to save the Italian ftrs in sz97. Would be better to use Luftwaffe in a counter attack to knock out the UK Med fleet IMO. Might scramble 1 G, and 2 IT though depending on how much UK sends to sz97, and if I’m felling lucky. Preserving German air is a high priority.

I know attacking the French in sz93 instead of the Brits sz 110 on G1 might help the Italians clear the med (get their NO), but I just can’t see leaving the BB and 2 cruisers in sz110 (42 IPCs). It allows the UK to recover too quickly, and they will be threatening your shores well ahead of schedule (also allows the US to concentrate more in the Pac in a global game). Leaving sz110 will also give the UK more of a safety blanket, because the treat of Sea Lion is even more diminished. Plus they will have more fleet on their turn, so wouldn’t that make the UK med fleet even more expendable when hitting the Italians?

I know that buying a carrier G1 slows down Barbarossa, but it could help to keep UK fighters in London UK1. Later in the game a beefed up Baltic fleet will force the allies to build a few more ships, and help you hold on to Norway.

I would also consider strafing Yugo, and maybe Paris leaving them for the Italians. The 19 IPCs Paris bounty and 4 IPC per turn for France will defiantly help rebuild the Italian fleet. You can also use the extra income to send Italians to the Russian front to can opener, or push into Caucasus/Mid East Oil so although it isn’t German income, it can be used against Russia.

That 19 plunder from france really would not change much in the med in terms of how well italy can do on the offensive.  If anything, it will help italy to be able to keep a strong defensive posture in the med.  Basically, it is unlikely that it will change much in italy getting Africa/Middle-East, but it will likely make italy harder kill for later.

That’s why I was complaining about SZ 91 being able to be hit with planes on Germany’s first turn.  There is no plane that can reach SZ 91 on round 1

@cyanight:

That’s why I was complaining about SZ 91 being able to be hit with planes on Germany’s first turn.  There is no plane that can reach SZ 91 on round 1

Yea, she meant attack the French in sz93 with Luftwaffe, and sz91 w/2 subs. Took me a minute too lol

@WILD:

@cyanight:

That’s why I was complaining about SZ 91 being able to be hit with planes on Germany’s first turn.  There is no plane that can reach SZ 91 on round 1

Yea, she meant attack the French in sz93 with Luftwaffe, and sz91 w/2 subs. Took me a minute too lol

Sorry, I did get the sea zone numbers backwards.

The probable loss of the cruiser off the coast of Spain/Portugal/Gibraltar will help immensely.  The French fleet I was thinking more of making life a lot easier on the Italians, but if they escape I guess it’s okay.  My hopes were to be proactive in hurting the allies in the Med and in turn making life easier on the Italians.  You know, to save the Italian fleet?

There’s absolutely no solution to save the Italian fleet.

A competent UK player will sink it no matter what you do.

I agree with you on that one BUT! also want to point out that at least as German and Italian player you should do the best out of it in:

Clearing out the Med combined with German Air Forces (2Ftr and 1 Tacbom) and Italian remaining Fleet and Air forces!

To Cmdr Jennifer

Agreed, Germany using 2 subs to take out the English cruiser off Gib in sz91 will help Italy a lot, although it can’t make the sz97 Taranto raid. If still alive the UK generally sends sz91 cruiser and probably the fighter from Gib to hit sz96 (Ita dd & transport) to make sure they get it. If the sz91 cruiser is dead (German subs) then the UK will most likely still send in 2 units into sz96 to make sure to kill it (preferably in one round), which means one less unit going to sz97 Taranto raid. Plus the fact if the UK sz91 cruiser is left alive to hit sz96, and survives, then it is one more ship that the axis need to kill to clear the Med (Italy’s NO).

The other part:
I can see the pros of the German Luftwaffe killing the French fleet in sz93 G1, and landing 3 planes in S Italy to scramble all German air in def of sz97 Taranto raid (preserves Ita air force for counter attack). Plus you could choose not to scramble all the planes, or just 1-2 Germ ftrs in a ploy to trap/weaken the UK in sz97 for a counter attack once they send in everything that can reach it. It would defiantly help the Italians out so they can clear the Med (Ita NO) on their turn in a counter strike on the surviving UK Med fleet (Med should be clear). Plus if the Italians clear sz97 on their turn the UK can’t convoy them.

The cons are leaving sz110 (1 bb, 2 cruisers) to do it, and loosing German air power in the scramble (if you do scramble). Neither of those things hold well for the axis long term for obvious reasons. The UK feels less threatened by Sea Lion keeping half its Atlantic fleet, and knows the Germans need all their air power to take London. So, I can’t see how this would stop the UK from doing sz97 Taranto in the first place (save the Italian fleet). It gives you some different options for being proactive about the raid, and the counter attack/recovery though.

Personally, I don’t ever think Sea Lion is worth it, at least not if it is going to cost what it usually does (most of the air force and almost all of the ground troops, plus rounds of income for transports.)

The threat is nice, but I find myself generally sticking with 3 transports (dunno, I like odd numbers, sure 2 would work just as well) in the North Sea mostly for getting extra foot soldiers into Russia faster.  Those transports, in a pinch, MIGHT be useful in a light Sea Lion assault, if England leaves itself under-defended, but I don’t think it would be my primary focus.

My hope was more in line of making Taranto less appealing for England, or if failing that, saving the other portions of the Italian fleet.  After all, there are two transports, uhm, a submarine, cruiser? and destroyer or 2? in the other two sea zones that won’t be hit if the Cruiser off Gibraltar is gone and maybe the French fleet is down as well.  England only has so much firepower to use.  The German air, on the other hand, being available was more of a deterrent for England.  Now they know that if they do attack, the Axis might not scramble any Italian fighters - so if they go in, they go in full bore instead of going in light in hopes of getting Italian fighters to scramble and relying on the dice to both let them win AND kill Italian air, but yet having other forces available for hits in other locations.

Just my thoughts on the matter.  I know a lot of players play the odds on their attacks, happily going in for 72% or better odds and figuring, even if they lose those battles, they hurt the enemy more than they are hurt in return.  Germany is more able to recoup the loss of 1-4 aircraft in round 1 than Italy is in recouping 2 aircraft lost in round 1.  England is also more able to recover from the loss of planes than Italy is.  (Italy, IMHO, is more able to recover than Russia.)

Yeah I agree that Sea Lion can be a winning strat (for the allies lol).

As Germany I like to buy a carrier G1 to keep my options open and keep the allies guessing (as many do). After that a Sea Lion attempt would depend on how things went in the sea battles around England, what UK bought, and how much navy/air they still have that can get to England to def. Many UK players will buy a ftr and half doz inf just to secure England and not have to worry about it, others might go a little lighter, and maybe buy a transport or something for S Africa (or IC for Egypt). If UK does a Taranto raid, much of their available air power is in the Med and can’t get back in time, so Sea Lion might be a viable option especially if they don’t max buy for London UK1.

I also think that if the right situation arises you almost have to do Sea Lion at times just to keep your opponents honest. If you don’t take some risks or get to complacent you tip your hand. You need to keep an edge so they are always thinking “that SOB just might try that”