Windows 8

OK so no one is EVER going to sit at their desk and glom their sticky fingers all over their expensive touchscreen when a mouse has been the tool of choice for decades.  Its just not what people want to do and we don’t care that microsoft wants us to. Voice activation sounds about as fun as talking to a voicemail robot.  No dice.

Now, to get these “features” we have to sacrifice all the basic, simple things that people have been taught to use ever since windows 95.  The point of using a computer is not the OS; it’s the word processor, the spreadsheet, the internet browser, and in some cases the weird programming or scientific/engineering applications that some of us call work. If the OS gets in the way of getting that work done we don’t want it.  The OS should be like makeup on a pretty girl - you shouldn’t even notice its there if its doing its job right.

Windows HATE gets a fail.

Jermofoot, corporate people who use windows for productivity are the ones complaining about windows 8.  Pick up a non-microsoft sponsored trade journal on IT and read what users are saying, they hate it.

Corporations don’t like upgrading operating systems because it often breaks older software that works just fine.  There is a reason why lots of companies still use older versions of an OS besides just being lazy.

You think windows 8 is all that, try reading some articles on it from people not on the microsoft payroll…

This site is a bit whacked but I recommend it for IT and strangish science news…

http://www.theregister.co.uk/

variance hit the nail on the head.  People don’t want to relearn the applications they have been using for years just to do the same job.  I started in IT BEFORE windows…  I was a power user of windows 3.11, and have to write software for microsoft operating systems using microsoft programming tools.  Trust me, change is not a welcome thing when it is forced on you.

@variance:

OK so no one is EVER going to sit at their desk and glom their sticky fingers all over their expensive touchscreen when a mouse has been the tool of choice for decades.  Its just not what people want to do and we don’t care that microsoft wants us to. Voice activation sounds about as fun as talking to a voicemail robot.  No dice.

Now, to get these “features” we have to sacrifice all the basic, simple things that people have been taught to use ever since windows 95.  The point of using a computer is not the OS; it’s the word processor, the spreadsheet, the internet browser, and in some cases the weird programming or scientific/engineering applications that some of us call work. If the OS gets in the way of getting that work done we don’t want it.  The OS should be like makeup on a pretty girl - you shouldn’t even notice its there if its doing its job right.

Windows HATE gets a fail.

You still aren’t giving specifics.  I just helped a client to map a drive and they were using Windows 8.  If I knew the windows powershell command off the top of my head, it would have been done in seconds.  Instead, it took about a minute, and most of that was identifying the path of the network share.

The lack of a Start button did not prevent my ability to get it done, nor delay the resolution noticeably, if at all.

Voice dictation has come a long way and works pretty smoothly.  Not what I remember back in the 90s, which was pretty hilarious in the unintentional results that came up.

I’m not what “features we have to sacrifice” to use a mouse.  It’s there.  The keyboard - also there.  There is realistically no functional difference between operating the way you would in Win95 in Win8.  I’ve done it dozens of times at this point. I still don’t see where the “OS is getting in the way”.  If I can do it jumping in blindly, and a self-described “computer illiterate” user can do it in an hour, I don’t believe there is an issue here except that people want to make it one.

So tell me again….where is the issue?  You say you have an issue with the OS getting in the way of reaching say, a Word Processor.  I can give you probably a dozen ways to reach it.  How in the world do you blame the OS when the User can’t find his way around when there are literally more ways to reach it than ever before, including how it was accessed previously???

@MrMalachiCrunch:

Jermofoot, corporate people who use windows for productivity are the ones complaining about windows 8.  Pick up a non-microsoft sponsored trade journal on IT and read what users are saying, they hate it.

Corporations don’t like upgrading operating systems because it often breaks older software that works just fine.  There is a reason why lots of companies still use older versions of an OS besides just being lazy.

You think windows 8 is all that, try reading some articles on it from people not on the microsoft payroll…

This site is a bit whacked but I recommend it for IT and strangish science news…

http://www.theregister.co.uk/

variance hit the nail on the head.  People don’t want to relearn the applications they have been using for years just to do the same job.  I started in IT BEFORE windows…  I was a power user of windows 3.11, and have to write software for microsoft operating systems using microsoft programming tools.  Trust me, change is not a welcome thing when it is forced on you.

You are right and that is a valid point.  However, that is not relegated to Win8 alone: all previously releases of Win O/S had the same compatibility issue with programs designed for the preceding release.  There are some compatibility approaches to this: run in different modes on the current O/S, install a virtual O/S, but nothing is perfect.  Additionally, the number 1 factor in upgrading isn’t user experience or compatibility, it’s BUDGET, guaranteed.

As far as not updating - same thing, many people are on XP and never moved to Vista or 7.  The majority of our clients are this way, and are honestly waiting way too long to implement and upgrade to a newer O/S.  There is a very real security issue here.  Software changes (and should) just as well…yet where are the complaints?  I feel it’s unfairly directed at MS because people are lazy, impatient, and think everything should just automatically work.  Expectations are completely wrong.  But that’s beside the point.

I need specifics on why people claim it’s so terrible.  Saying it does not make it so, and so far the few complaints I’ve run into all come down to a user doesn’t take the time to familiarize themselves.  AN HOUR.  Anyone that purchases any utility, electronic, tool, vehicle, etc. and does not spend at least a cursory amount of time reading a manual or orienting themselves are just being irresponsible.

I will give MS is due criticism, however I don’t think it’s here.

Windows 95 was better than 3.11 and xp was better still, so people adopted them and many are still perfectly happy with xp or 7.  The only thing that makes xp “obsolete” is microsoft decided to not support it anymore just so they can ram this windows 8 garbage down our throats (and don’t give me any crap about security issues because it should be microsoft’s job to release any necessary patches to support the product they sold us).  If windows 8 was an improvement over xp or 7 they wouldn’t have to force it; people would see the advantages and adopt it but that’s not what’s happening because windows 8 just plain sucks.

Here are some specifics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Qo_2I0NvQ&feature=share

@variance:

Windows 95 was better than 3.11 and xp was better still, so people adopted them and many are still perfectly happy with xp or 7.  The only thing that makes xp “obsolete” is microsoft decided to not support it anymore

It’s called a lifecycle, which they extended before Win8 even came out.  Every other OS/Application developer does the same lifecycle.

just so they can ram this windows 8 garbage down our throats (and don’t give me any crap about security issues because it should be microsoft’s job to release any necessary patches to support the product they sold us).

They did and still do…until April 2014.  You’ve plenty of opportunity to plan for this with multiple options to choose from. Because you haven’t isn’t Microsoft’s problem, it’s yours.  To expect them to support a nearly decade and a half old Operating system when 3(!) more have been released since then, is incredibly unreasonable.

If windows 8 was an improvement over xp or 7 they wouldn’t have to force it; people would see the advantages and adopt it but that’s not what’s happening because windows 8 just plain sucks.

It’s not being forced.  You can buy Win7 and install it from vendors.  You could buy and install any O/S you’d like, but that’s at your risk and doesn’t take full advantage of the hardware’s capabilities.  People don’t know the advantages because as you said - you just walked out and bought a computer without looking into it first. You probably don’t need everything it has to offer, however.

You still need to go into detail why it sucks.  I won’t just take your word for it.

Here are some specifics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Qo_2I0NvQ&feature=share

1. HURR…no start menu…HURR - it’s there.  There’s just not a button.  You go to the same exact spot and click on it.  Seriously, it’s not that hard.
2. Doesn’t like the Charms Bar - ok, don’t use it.  Then also don’t go on to complain how he has to go out of his way to get to it (does that make any bit of sense) and COMPLETELY skips over the Start Menu option because it would hurt his “point” in #1.
3. Doesn’t like the default stuff on the start/apps menus.  That’s why it’s customizable.  Buy a new house and complain about the wall paper?  There’s a reason why we don’t do this…
4. Doesn’t like the default stuff preloaded on his computer like any other computer purchased anywhere for decades
5. Complains after not buying tech support because of a wholesale purchase (moron) and wants another piece of software and license for free.

I’m sure there are valid complaints.  These are not one of them.

Jermofoot, my job is not to inform you of what the rest of the world is saying about windows 8, YOU should be curious, if you are not then I really can’t help you.

Education is good, I commend you on that.  I would offer you some advice, learn linux as well.  Your MS ticket can be declared outdated just like an older version of windows where support is no longer provided.

Microsoft cans three ‘pinnacle’ certifications, sparking user fury
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/31/microsoft_cans_three_pinnacle_certifications_sparking_user_fury/

You might be interested in this…
Windows 8.1: Microsoft’s reluctant upgrade has a split-screen personality
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/12/windows_eight_one_review/

Windows 8 is really 8.00

In the software world, we call the version X. “oh oh”.  You avoid version “oh oh” like the plague.

Power users who type don’t want to take their hands of the keyboard to freaking touch the screen……

It’s called a lifecycle, which they extended before Win8 even came out.  Every other OS/Application developer does the same lifecycle.

Jermofoot, really?  I would qualify your statement with “some”, especially at microsoft.  Do you personally know a developer?

Extends hand….  Pleased to meet you Jermofoot.  If you didn’t know a developer personally before, you do now.  I fancy myself a renaissance man so I won’t claim I have 31 years of software development just because I got paid for my first program in 1982.  But over the years I obtained a 4 year BSc in computer science and software I wrote over 15 years ago is still running just fine on fortune 500 companies and in fact some modules are still being sold unchanged 15 years later.  Of course, I didn’t weld my software to microsoft solutions.  I modularized them and my modules still work and sell whereas the modules where I isolated microsoft specific technology don’t.  Microsoft broke them.  Specifically the MDAC dll database connectivity stuff.  RDO upgraded to ADO then upgraded to ActiveX gosh all over the span of 4 years.  All quite defunct now.  All the database stuff switched over eventually from SQL server to a linux based and now cloud based system.  My modules STILL work untouched in the new paradigm.

Software and operating systems don’t have to break every few years.  You should research emulation, you’d be surprised how many legacy software solutions are running decades and decades later on simulated computers running on cloud platforms.

Just be flexible with technology ‘camps’ and diversify the knowledge portfolio.

MrMalachiCrunch, as an IT expert, do you get the impression that microsoft engages in “planned obsolescence” as a business strategy?  If so, do you feel that it is unethical?

MS is unethical but not because of that per se.  They have every right to abuse their market position.  And the market will respond as it is.  MS is in real danger in their desktop operating system business.  Getting to the point you don’t need a MS OS to do day to day tasks.  They still have MS Office but if that bastion falls too they are in real deep do do.

My problem is not learning something new per se but learning something new because MS sees all of Apple’s “ap store” cash and wants in on it. Windows 8 and the Xbox One seem to be a “this is our corporate vision and we’re not interested in whether it is really what customers want.”

Learning something new is great.  Spending time learning how to do something old you used to know how to do one way but now are forced to do another way is a waste of effort.

@MrMalachiCrunch:

Jermofoot, my job is not to inform you of what the rest of the world is saying about windows 8, YOU should be curious, if you are not then I really can’t help you.

I’m more concerned about what I think, and I’m fine with it at this point.  It’s not perfect, I just think it gets a lot of undue criticism.

Education is good, I commend you on that.  I would offer you some advice, learn linux as well.  Your MS ticket can be declared outdated just like an older version of windows where support is no longer provided.

I do have some experience with Linux, however it is not a requirement nor worth my time for my current job as exactly 0 clients utilize it.

Microsoft cans three ‘pinnacle’ certifications, sparking user fury
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/31/microsoft_cans_three_pinnacle_certifications_sparking_user_fury/

Part of the risk with any cert, but there is reason behind this.  Did you read anything beyond this article?  They will simply be unavailable, will have a replacement, and do not devalue the certification of those that already have it/will have it before the retirement date.

You might be interested in this…
Windows 8.1: Microsoft’s reluctant upgrade has a split-screen personality
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/09/12/windows_eight_one_review/

Thanks, I just kinda skimmed it for now, will read it more in depth later.  So far, for work very few people are using Win8 just yet.  Most are on XP, haha.

@MrMalachiCrunch:

Jermofoot, really?  I would qualify your statement with “some”, especially at microsoft.  Do you personally know a developer?

I wrote a really quick response on my break, so not the best phrasing.  What I was meaning was that all developers of O/S have lifecycles for their products, where support ends.  This is reasonable, and to expect otherwise is ridiculous.

Extends hand….  Pleased to meet you Jermofoot.  If you didn’t know a developer personally before, you do now.  I fancy myself a renaissance man so I won’t claim I have 31 years of software development just because I got paid for my first program in 1982.  But over the years I obtained a 4 year BSc in computer science and software I wrote over 15 years ago is still running just fine on fortune 500 companies and in fact some modules are still being sold unchanged 15 years later.  Of course, I didn’t weld my software to microsoft solutions.  I modularized them and my modules still work and sell whereas the modules where I isolated microsoft specific technology don’t.  Microsoft broke them.  Specifically the MDAC dll database connectivity stuff.  RDO upgraded to ADO then upgraded to ActiveX gosh all over the span of 4 years.  All quite defunct now.  All the database stuff switched over eventually from SQL server to a linux based and now cloud based system.  My modules STILL work untouched in the new paradigm.

I’m glad for you, that’s wonderful.  And while I will defer to your expertise on programming, I can see a situation where older deployments/builds will not work as technology advances, or vulnerabilities are addressed - where a new platform is adopted and older ones are obsolesced. In a vacuum, many things can work just fine, however that never seems to be case in real world deployment.

Software and operating systems don’t have to break every few years.  You should research emulation, you’d be surprised how many legacy software solutions are running decades and decades later on simulated computers running on cloud platforms.

I’ve brought up emulation and virtualization in this very thread and have noted it’s uses.  In one such example, I had to deploy an XP virtual machine to install 32-bit software that updated their compliance info at a bank when printing their forms.  This software was 15 years old at this point and the company was just NOW creating an updated software for newer OSes and 64-bit environments.  It was quite the hassle and unnecessary, but we made it work for the time being.  However, I don’t think in all cases should it be approached as “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” - there are real needs to address that spurn updates and upgrades, not to mention efficiency and functionality in general.  Not in my example, mind you, but overall I think this is true.

Just be flexible with technology ‘camps’ and diversify the knowledge portfolio.

I agree, and at some point it will become that.  I have quite a track to choose from as I work my way through rudimentary and required certifications off my job (MCSE 2012 and CCNA).  From there I can branch out into whatever interests me.  However, by and large it deals with Microsoft products and while not on 2012 for the most part, some are and more will at another time.  Most places lag behind from the release to when they actually employ it, and that’s been no different than the late 90s when I got my MCSE NT 4.0 - it took quite some time for anyone to move to Server 2000.

Sounds like you are on the right track, don’t disagree with anything you said.

I did most of my programming using MS visual basic.  It is VERY VERY easy to whip up quick applications but allows very poor programming habits to occur.  People always asked me why VB……cause that is what the client used and requested.  Period.  So I hear you on the linux thing, until there is demand in your specific domain…

A spent a few years with a company that did data migration from old legacy systems (AS-400 but really anything) and whacked the data into a new software system using MS sql server or Oracle.  We used alot of MS products, MS Access was HUGE for us.  I will admit it can be easier using MS products for a quick and dirty solution  but it will cost in terms of long term life cycle costs.  Often you don’t have the luxury of thinking of next month never mind next decade!

I did come across an article again I was thinking of earlier but was too lazy to find.  When not looking you stumble across things…

Gabe Newell: Windows 8 is a ‘catastrophe’ for PC biz

Gabe Newell knows a thing or two about microsoft and windows……

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/26/gabe_newell_windows_8/

@MrMalachiCrunch:

Sounds like you are on the right track, don’t disagree with anything you said.

I’m hoping at least…I’ve got a great opportunity here and basically the job I wanted back in the late 90s (good pay, and emlpoyer pays for my skill advancement/education/career development).

I did most of my programming using MS visual basic.  It is VERY VERY easy to whip up quick applications but allows very poor programming habits to occur.  People always asked me why VB……cause that is what the client used and requested.  Period.  So I hear you on the linux thing, until there is demand in your specific domain…

I’ve dabbled in programming and find it interesting, but never would want to make a career of it.  I MUCH prefer the sleuth-oriented aspect of troubleshooting, and people generally appreciate it more when you fix and issue and save the day.  I’m a people person, for the most part.  I don’t think I could handle looking at code all day.  :lol:

A spent a few years with a company that did data migration from old legacy systems (AS-400 but really anything) and whacked the data into a new software system using MS sql server or Oracle.  We used alot of MS products, MS Access was HUGE for us.  I will admit it can be easier using MS products for a quick and dirty solution  but it will cost in terms of long term life cycle costs.  Often you don’t have the luxury of thinking of next month never mind next decade!

The ubiquity of Windows more or less dictates the approach to the environment, needs, expansion, etc.  That’s just the way it is and probably will be for some time.  And clients are generally on the far side of the curve when it comes to staying up to date, I’ve found.  I can’t tell you how many times I’ve jury rigged something.  Like putting a band aid or duct tape on it and calling it a day, haha.  If a client looked just the next year ahead, things would be easier, but you are right.

I did come across an article again I was thinking of earlier but was too lazy to find.  When not looking you stumble across things….

Gabe Newell: Windows 8 is a ‘catastrophe’ for PC biz

Gabe Newell knows a thing or two about microsoft and windows……

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/07/26/gabe_newell_windows_8/

I made a brief response to this.  Gabe Newell is at this point a competitor to MS - in the interview he bashes Windows 8, he pushes the new system Steam is developing.  It was a sales pitch if anything.  Also, did you know he’s a former MS employee?

I MUCH prefer the sleuth-oriented aspect of troubleshooting, and people generally appreciate it more when you fix and issue and save the day.  I’m a people person, for the most part.  I don’t think I could handle looking at code all day.

The cartoon Dilbert is surprisingly accurate in depicting ‘computer types’.  IT does tend to be a draw to people who can’t relate that well to other people.  Now managing a strange brew of people like that requires exceptionally good people skills to tolerate them!

I was lucky in that only about 25% of what I did was coding (actually about an industry standard % of project manpower for commercial software, military software has 10% code/90% design/document/lifecycle) and that was done from home eventually.  My projects were small 1-3 month affairs with a great deal of reverse engineering.  If you like sleuth-oriented aspects of troubleshooting then you would LOVE to be an expert in tracking down hard to find bugs in code.  I was considered rather good in finding others bugs and writing code that had few bugs, probably why some of my code runs nearly 2 decades later on production systems.

I did know Gabe was a former employer and it is important to look at the source.  True, you do have to take what he says from the point of view he is a competitor to MS now and some of his more subjective comments were hyperbolic, but that being said….He was not un-accurate.

The last really good upgrade MS  did was when it went to NT 4.00 and in fact NT is still the heart of most MS operating systems code wise.

I’m looking to get back into the industry but from a sales perspective.  I much prefer dealing with people and there is an opportunity to make much more.  I hate knowing what my paycheque will be for the next year with no opportunity to make more.  Not to mention my brain does not work as well as it used to before the drunk driver nearly killed me.  My brain got quite a whack and the tests show…well they figure I’ll never be a software developer again.  They meaning the insurance company experts so who am I to argue?  Pizza slid under the door coding with people with body odour cause they are all still virgins or suits and sales…

I came across these articles today and thought they might be useful and/or informative.

This is quite the tour de force of an article……

500 MEELLION PCs still run Windows XP. How did we get here?
Just six months to go: what to do if you don’t have $200 per PC

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/01/six_months_end_xp_support/?page=1

….and just because I love Micro$oft so much…

Hackers just POURING through unpatched Internet Explorer zero-day hole Oh, sysadmins. It’s so much worse than we feared � report

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/01/ie_0day_widely_exploited/

‘I don’t trust Microsoft’ after NSA disclosures says former privacy chief Open source is the way to go warns Bowden
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/01/i_dont_trust_microsoft_after_nsa_disclosures_says_its_former_privacy_chief/