Who Wins

@Texas:

If Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning.  This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games.  What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1?  Are you not building their fleet back up?  How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there?  How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?

What? I cant make sense of this lol

Germany would have to invest massive amounts of cash into an invasion of UK lol. Lots of transports and a fleet to protect them. All UK has to do is plop down some more inf (to the already good amount starting there)

Meanwhile France and Russia face smash Germany because dumb German player buying all navy :P

The Allies have a massive Fleet advantage in this game and the Germans are fighting a losing battle if they try to win on the seas.

Also i dont think you get it Texas, France DOES NOT NEED HELP till way late, If Germans DO go Kill France first, AH cannot hold back both Russia while at the same time contain Italy for very long.
UK can still spend most in India because on turn 6 USA will dump 12 units into Europe to help france and all UK then needs is 2-3 transports to schuck 4-6 units into europe every turn (using french and usa fleet for protection). 4-6 inf is 12 - 18 IPCs per turn BUT UK starts with 3 turns worth of units. (not even counting the 8 in canada which french move over by turn 6 aswell) So they dont even need to buy any ground units in UK till atleast turn 8-9 or even later. By that point they are close to or over 40 IPC income. this means UK could build 6 units in UK and STILL put down another 6-7 into India

CP are screwed. Period. I have played 6 games, and the more i think about it the more i am convinced.

Im also convinced. I dont get the fact that Texas thinks France needs any help from Britain or Germany needs to build ships. France has no problems with Germany, even less is if you transport African armies to Europe, and Portuguese troops.

We need to move Paris back east; 3 spaces from Berlin. On the other hand, I did get a large army into Burgundy. Then again, this was through Switzerland, so relocating Paris needs to be combined with beefing up the Swiss.

This was probably very tough to balance, but the Munich factory may be too much the other way.

@Uncrustable:

@Texas:

If Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning.  This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games.  What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1?  Are you not building their fleet back up?  How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there?  How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?

What? I cant make sense of this lol

Germany would have to invest massive amounts of cash into an invasion of UK lol. Lots of transports and a fleet to protect them. All UK has to do is plop down some more inf (to the already good amount starting there)

Meanwhile France and Russia face smash Germany because dumb German player buying all navy :P

The Allies have a massive Fleet advantage in this game and the Germans are fighting a losing battle if they try to win on the seas.

Also i dont think you get it Texas, France DOES NOT NEED HELP till way late, If Germans DO go Kill France first, AH cannot hold back both Russia while at the same time contain Italy for very long.
UK can still spend most in India because on turn 6 USA will dump 12 units into Europe to help france and all UK then needs is 2-3 transports to schuck 4-6 units into europe every turn (using french and usa fleet for protection). 4-6 inf is 12 - 18 IPCs per turn BUT UK starts with 3 turns worth of units. (not even counting the 8 in canada which french move over by turn 6 aswell) So they dont even need to buy any ground units in UK till atleast turn 8-9 or even later. By that point they are close to or over 40 IPC income. this means UK could build 6 units in UK and STILL put down another 6-7 into India

CP are screwed. Period. I have played 6 games, and the more i think about it the more i am convinced.

You basically just made my point for me.  Germany has to dictate the UKs purchases and where.  If the UK is spending everything in India, you have to get their attention and force them to split their buys.  AH can capture Rome as early as the 5th turn, well before the Americans ever get close.  Possibly earlier if they get favorable rolls.  Also, if France and Russia go on the offensive, I would be overjoyed as a CP player as that is the main problem the CP player has in this game is they go too aggressive and lose way more troops attacking as the Allies do defending.  Also, as far as the German Navy, yes, you need to buy a battleship every turn and a sub every now and then to force the Allies to protect their transports.  Trust me on this one.  If you ignore the sea with the CP, you have no chance of winning.  You can’t allow the UK and US to freely land troops in Europe, you have to isolate France.  Also, it forces them to also purchase warships rather than transports and land units. I have seen the CP win the majority of games and this is the basic strategy to winning.

Texas you are clueless, what im saying is that Germany CANNOT dictate UK.
UK can spend whereever it so pleases, with absolutely no worry with what Germany is doing. (Unlike G40 where Germ can do an early sealion)
Heck a one good UK strat is to get 2-4 transports early and chuck units to Karelia everyother turn and into Europe on the turns inbetween.
Once the transports are up they can resume spending in India (drop 10+ units once every few turns or 4-6 everyturn.

If A-H is all over Italy and Germany is going to Russia, then France can EASILY come down (through Switzerland) and beat them back away from Italy.
If A-H is all over Italy and Germany is going trying to get Paris first, then Russia will either A: Cripple both to the point where its gg. B: Force enough forces back East to effectively ‘save’ Rome. C: Go all in on A-H and wipe them out.

You cannot build navy as Germany and make enough ground forces to take out moscow and push into France. Unless of course the allied player is a moron. For every BB you build that is atleast 3 more infantry each for both Russia and France.
France, Russia, and Italy should all build pure infantry with a couple fighters mixed in to create a stalemate. Once a stalemate is acheived it is gg for the axis, they simply cannot reinforce the front fast enough.

If Germany does not do KFF then France can take up portugal, spain, morocco, and several tts in africa by turn 4ish and have an income nearly as high Germany itself.

The main problem is Berlin is so far away from both Paris and Moscow and theres no other way to build units.
Germany needs a second production tt (like india) in Ruhr or Munich and/or some sort of Railroad national bonus

@Texas:

@Uncrustable:

@Texas:

If Germany doesn’t buy navy, the CPs have no shot at winning.  This might explain why you see the allies win most of your games.  What do you do after the British fleet is sunk G1?  Are you not building their fleet back up?  How are you preventing the Germans from landing in the UK without spending money there?  How can the UK help out in France without a Navy?

What? I cant make sense of this lol

Germany would have to invest massive amounts of cash into an invasion of UK lol. Lots of transports and a fleet to protect them. All UK has to do is plop down some more inf (to the already good amount starting there)

Meanwhile France and Russia face smash Germany because dumb German player buying all navy :P

The Allies have a massive Fleet advantage in this game and the Germans are fighting a losing battle if they try to win on the seas.

Also i dont think you get it Texas, France DOES NOT NEED HELP till way late, If Germans DO go Kill France first, AH cannot hold back both Russia while at the same time contain Italy for very long.
UK can still spend most in India because on turn 6 USA will dump 12 units into Europe to help france and all UK then needs is 2-3 transports to schuck 4-6 units into europe every turn (using french and usa fleet for protection). 4-6 inf is 12 - 18 IPCs per turn BUT UK starts with 3 turns worth of units. (not even counting the 8 in canada which french move over by turn 6 aswell) So they dont even need to buy any ground units in UK till atleast turn 8-9 or even later. By that point they are close to or over 40 IPC income. this means UK could build 6 units in UK and STILL put down another 6-7 into India

CP are screwed. Period. I have played 6 games, and the more i think about it the more i am convinced.

You basically just made my point for me.  Germany has to dictate the UKs purchases and where.  If the UK is spending everything in India, you have to get their attention and force them to split their buys.  AH can capture Rome as early as the 5th turn, well before the Americans ever get close.  Possibly earlier if they get favorable rolls.  Also, if France and Russia go on the offensive, I would be overjoyed as a CP player as that is the main problem the CP player has in this game is they go too aggressive and lose way more troops attacking as the Allies do defending.  Also, as far as the German Navy, yes, you need to buy a battleship every turn and a sub every now and then to force the Allies to protect their transports.  Trust me on this one.  If you ignore the sea with the CP, you have no chance of winning.  You can’t allow the UK and US to freely land troops in Europe, you have to isolate France.  Also, it forces them to also purchase warships rather than transports and land units. I have seen the CP win the majority of games and this is the basic strategy to winning.

How are you taking Rome by turn 5?  If Italy continually retreats to Rome and leaves ‘roadblocks’ for you… (leaves one inf in Venice turn 1 so Austria cannot advance- must conduct combat in Venice)?  Turn 5-6 the US is landing 12 units in Rome…

He has to playing against a very incompetent allied player lol
Because he also builds battleships and submarines everyturn germany and transports to ‘threaten uk’

@Uncrustable:

He has to playing against a very incompetent allied player lol
Because he also builds battleships and submarines everyturn germany and transports to ‘threaten uk’

I don’t mind a ship or two, but not every turn.  Depends on what the allies are buying. I tried the transport route to drop germans in karelia- lost them on mine rolls.  never again will I bother with transports as Germany-  it should start with one at least.

I agree on Germany starting with a transport

This thread has become humorous.  Let’s all complain that the CP can’t win then ridicule the guy that has had success with them.  For the record, I don’t build transports with Germany.  I would consider it if the UK is ignorant enough to never build in Europe.  You also have 30+ income to spend on land units even buying a battleship every turn.  Also, if you have the sea advantage, you can reduce your naval buys.

Okay, answer this basic question, what is your UK1 build after the Germans sink your fleet?

@Texas:

This thread has become humorous.  Let’s all complain that the CP can’t win then ridicule the guy that has had success with them.  For the record, I don’t build transports with Germany.  I would consider it if the UK is ignorant enough to never build in Europe.  You also have 30+ income to spend on land units even buying a battleship every turn.  Also, if you have the sea advantage, you can reduce your naval buys.

Okay, answer this basic question, what is your UK1 build after the Germans sink your fleet?

Well, it depends on what Germany buys and how badly they beat the British Navy, because a 2 BB, 1 SS (or 1 BB, 2 cruisers) build that combined with Canadian ships (if available) and French ships in the SZ west of Britain should be safe enough, especially with 2 mine zones to reach it.

But france can easily get 30 IPCs as well to match the germany 30 IPCs … how does Germany win then?  All france has to do is build infantry and the odd fighter.

The point of a German naval build isn’t for some hopeless invasion of England. The point is to prevent the UK landing troops in Europe whenever and wherever it wants. If Germany lets them do that, they aren’t playing well.

@BJCard:

@Texas:

This thread has become humorous.  Let’s all complain that the CP can’t win then ridicule the guy that has had success with them.  For the record, I don’t build transports with Germany.  I would consider it if the UK is ignorant enough to never build in Europe.  You also have 30+ income to spend on land units even buying a battleship every turn.  Also, if you have the sea advantage, you can reduce your naval buys.

Okay, answer this basic question, what is your UK1 build after the Germans sink your fleet?

Well, it depends on what Germany buys and how badly they beat the British Navy, because a 2 BB, 1 SS (or 1 BB, 2 cruisers) build that combined with Canadian ships (if available) and French ships in the SZ west of Britain should be safe enough, especially with 2 mine zones to reach it.

But france can easily get 30 IPCs as well to match the germany 30 IPCs … how does Germany win then?  All france has to do is build infantry and the odd fighter.

Okay and that is the UK response I would expect and it was dictated by what Germany did.  With that buy, nothing is left for India either, relieving pressure on the Ottomans.  My Geman build would depend what Russia did, but at a minimum 1 BB would be purchased.  Possibly a transport to force the UK to garrison Scotland and Yorkshire.

@BJCard:

How are you taking Rome by turn 5?  If Italy continually retreats to Rome and leaves ‘roadblocks’ for you… (leaves one inf in Venice turn 1 so Austria cannot advance- must conduct combat in Venice)?  Turn 5-6 the US is landing 12 units in Rome…

Italy can’t move their forces out of Venice towards Rome on I1, Tuscany is Austrian controlled.  They can move them to Piedmont if they want.

I honestly don’t think this game was designed to actually achieve the victory conditions.  You can win without capturing a single capital.  I think they were put in there to give the players a goal and well, you need to have sort of condition for victory (until the other player gives up doesn’t sound that great in a rulebook).  You just have to push the other side to the point to where victory for them would be extremely difficult and time consuming.  If I am an allied player fending off Germany at Paris after playing for 8+ hours and was told that if hung in there for another 10 hours, the Allies would have turned the tide, I would probably surrender anyway. I don’t have the time and energy to go on that long.  That actually reflects the real war as well.  The Allies won the real war but never came close to Berlin.

@Texas:

@BJCard:

How are you taking Rome by turn 5?  If Italy continually retreats to Rome and leaves ‘roadblocks’ for you… (leaves one inf in Venice turn 1 so Austria cannot advance- must conduct combat in Venice)?  Turn 5-6 the US is landing 12 units in Rome…

Italy can’t move their forces out of Venice towards Rome on I1, Tuscany is Austrian controlled.  They can move them to Piedmont if they want.

So you attack Tuscany be sea?  Ok, then the Italian forces move to Piedmont leaving one infantry in Venice and all other Italian forces go to Florence then.  The Austrian units in Tuscany become sacrificial lambs (which is why I don’t advocate an amphibious attack on Tuscany- those units just end up dead).

Doesn’t change the fact that Austria can’t hit Florence until turn 3 and by then Italy will just have 1 unit there.  Perhaps Italy will have its main stack in Florence if the Austrian attack is weak.  By stacking Florence , Italy can delay Austria another two turns (attack Rome turn 5 at earliest).  If not, this sets up a possible attack on Rome turn 4 by Austria, if they have enough troops to do it, which seems doubtful.

I usually buy a full set of Naval as Britain turn 1, and then buy some for India turn 2 and beyond.  If the German naval attack went poorly then naturally I wouldn’t have to buy much Naval.

As Britain I would rather enjoy a naval buildup against Germany because that is sucking up German IPCs that would otherwise be marching on Paris or Moscow.  Ottoman is not exactly hard to contain for a couple rounds with just the starting forces in the mid east.

Taking Tuscany doesn’t achieve much. You have a chance of losing one unit and after that the Rome garrison is moving to Tuscany anyway. Only time I do those kind of small attacks is to let the opponent move their units the ‘wrong’ way. If that sz bordered Naples, that would have been a good choice, but Tuscany is pointless.

Foring Britain to reinforce Scortland is not worth it. They have troops there anyway and if two German units land there (survivng mines) they are easy meat for the British homeguard.

And building a BB every turn with Germany leaves you around 30. The same (or less) as France. Then there is Russia and Italy.

And every strategy Germany comes up with is seen five turns before Paris is reached. So if Germany goes all Russia, everybody sees that before it is too late. Same goes for every other strategy.

@Tavenier:

Taking Tuscany doesn’t achieve much. You have a chance of losing one unit and after that the Rome garrison is moving to Tuscany anyway. Only time I do those kind of small attacks is to let the opponent move their units the ‘wrong’ way. If that sz bordered Naples, that would have been a good choice, but Tuscany is pointless.

Foring Britain to reinforce Scortland is not worth it. They have troops there anyway and if two German units land there (survivng mines) they are easy meat for the British homeguard.

And building a BB every turn with Germany leaves you around 30. The same (or less) as France. Then there is Russia and Italy.

And every strategy Germany comes up with is seen five turns before Paris is reached. So if Germany goes all Russia, everybody sees that before it is too late. Same goes for every other strategy.

Agreed.

@Tavenier:

Taking Tuscany doesn’t achieve much. You have a chance of losing one unit and after that the Rome garrison is moving to Tuscany anyway. Only time I do those kind of small attacks is to let the opponent move their units the ‘wrong’ way. If that sz bordered Naples, that would have been a good choice, but Tuscany is pointless.

It doesn’t achieve much, but it doesn’t cost much either.  It also reduces the amount of spaces between Vienna and Rome by 1.

@Tavenier:

Foring Britain to reinforce Scortland is not worth it. They have troops there anyway and if two German units land there (survivng mines) they are easy meat for the British homeguard.

And building a BB every turn with Germany leaves you around 30. The same (or less) as France. Then there is Russia and Italy.

…and the CPs have Austria and the Ottomans, which both make more than Russia and Italy.

The German navy isn’t for landing in the UK, it for preventing the UK from landing in France.  As far as the argument for a German navy, take a look at this.  At the start, the respective alliances have the following incomes:  CP - 77, Allies - 113.

If the CPs control the sea, you cut off 50 of the Allies IPCs, shifting that to CP - 77, Allies - 63.  Now there is a cost by the CPs to maintain the sea advantage and the UK can build in India, but that is too far away from the western front to matter.  The CPs have no chance if you don’t prevent the UK and US from landing.  I think I have said that a time or two so far.

@Tavenier:

And every strategy Germany comes up with is seen five turns before Paris is reached. So if Germany goes all Russia, everybody sees that before it is too late. Same goes for every other strategy.

No point in going all Russia.  Paris/Rome is the easiest victory condition to meet.

@BJCard:

@Texas:

@BJCard:

How are you taking Rome by turn 5?  If Italy continually retreats to Rome and leaves ‘roadblocks’ for you… (leaves one inf in Venice turn 1 so Austria cannot advance- must conduct combat in Venice)?  Turn 5-6 the US is landing 12 units in Rome…

Italy can’t move their forces out of Venice towards Rome on I1, Tuscany is Austrian controlled.  They can move them to Piedmont if they want.

So you attack Tuscany be sea?  Ok, then the Italian forces move to Piedmont leaving one infantry in Venice and all other Italian forces go to Florence then.  The Austrian units in Tuscany become sacrificial lambs (which is why I don’t advocate an amphibious attack on Tuscany- those units just end up dead).

Doesn’t change the fact that Austria can’t hit Florence until turn 3 and by then Italy will just have 1 unit there.  Perhaps Italy will have its main stack in Florence if the Austrian attack is weak.  By stacking Florence , Italy can delay Austria another two turns (attack Rome turn 5 at earliest).  If not, this sets up a possible attack on Rome turn 4 by Austria, if they have enough troops to do it, which seems doubtful.

I usually buy a full set of Naval as Britain turn 1, and then buy some for India turn 2 and beyond.  If the German naval attack went poorly then naturally I wouldn’t have to buy much Naval.

As Britain I would rather enjoy a naval buildup against Germany because that is sucking up German IPCs that would otherwise be marching on Paris or Moscow.  Ottoman is not exactly hard to contain for a couple rounds with just the starting forces in the mid east.

They also take out 2 Italian infantry in the process.  I have tried it both ways and taking Tuscany turn 1 typically works better (they get to defend at 3 rather than attacking at 2 in Venice plus you gain the battleship hit).  Even with the Italians stacking Tuscany, Austria has enough to win it without it being contested.  As far as Venice retreating, there isn’t much to retreat from there anyway on I1.  Even if you only push as far as Tuscany, you have limited the Italians to 7 IPCs.  Building another transport or two also gets infantry to Rome faster.

I will typically sink the UKs purchases on G2, so the UK is continuously spending its money on just fleet and once the German ships are in the UK sea zones, they no longer have to roll for mines.  Buying navy with AH is an option I haven’t really played around much with yet, but it has merit since the Allies can’t afford to build ships in the Med.