Germany playbook: overall strategy guide

@andrewaagamer said in Germany playbook: overall strategy guide:

Not sure what you mean by that? You mean when the Germans counter attack?

I’ll try it another way. When you calculate the odds for the UK defence in SZ97 you are miscalculating. The battle calculator assigns the first hit on the UK forces against the CV which cannot be done in the actual battle because the Axis can just retreat and sink the planes.

@andrewaagamer said in Germany playbook: overall strategy guide:

ringing just one fighter drops it to 93% instead to 98% with a 3 fighter scramble and at those odds I doubt anyone would scramble so it works out the same.

I probably would. I am aware of the scenario you refer to and it is, as you outline, really, really undesirable. The downside of the no scramble is that it can cost Luftwaffe, which is not good. Although I might sometimes not scramble. Either way though, there is no way that I am not counter attacking with Italy.

I definitely scramble at anything weaker than that attack. Only costs 1 Luftwaffe when clearing out the fleet later costs more.

@andrewaagamer said in Germany playbook: overall strategy guide:

Actually, I used averages for everything.

What about the casualties from Taranto, for example?

@andrewaagamer said in Germany playbook: overall strategy guide:

Yes, but any Italian counterattack means the French fleet escapes and the British fleet in SZ96 has to be dealt with by the Germans. Also, even a strafe means Italian planes are at risk. Losing the Italian fleet is bad. Losing the Italian air force is really bad.

I think you are worrying too much about the Italian air. The Luftwaffe can reinforce. I would take that risk every time.

French ships escaping? So what. Then you don’t have to kill them. There may be a cruiser in 96 for the Luftwaffe to finish off. It can be argued that it isn’t worth half a plane. If it escapes to the Red Sea it struggles to get back in the game.

Having said all that, maybe the 2ftr from London move is worth more consideration. Especially if you use the Indian transport to claim Persia so you can use the British transport suiciding to take Greece. With the sub bid, scrambling would be insane.

@taamvan If Italy takes S-France than the entire Luftwaffe can attack gibastion and destroy it in one or two blows.
Thus leaving the Med for the italians. Do you think Gibastion is worth in (in a no bid game)?
I have been attacking the italian DD and Tpt at Malta + tobruk strafe. In NCM putting a DD at greece so Italy can’t reach Egypt. It gives the italians three SZ to attack and it safes the Carrier (retreat through Suez and combine with Pacific fleet.

@cornwallis

If the planes start with some in Holland and most in W Germany, aren’t they 1 move short to attack SZ92? Am I missing something?

More UK ships can come to SZ92 on UK2, but the gibbastion usually moves at that point.

In some of the variants we play, its not just the fleet but also the airbase that is threatented (because the axis can come in force over land to attack gibraltar) and so its fallen out of favor insteat people hide in the red sea

Italy can take Algeria to provide a landing space. So not sure what taking S France has to do with it.

I guess if the entire Luftwaffe attacks, they can indeed win 95%. The cost seems quite high though. I calculate 7 planes lost.

@simon33 Yes i meant Algeria in stead of S-France. You can defend Algeria with UK but it requires one or two fighters, which means you’re weakening your UK fleet.

Usually Ger buys one or two air units on G1, so they have more to strike. The few times the Ger did attack me at gibraltar, they sure as hell didn’t lose 7 air units:p they have 10 Fgr and Tac Bomb and at least two bombers so a lot of power if they can land on Algeria.

It can be S-Fr if Germany takes it on G1, so they can buy carriers but that’s another discussion.

@cornwallis @simon33

Good call, I didn’t see that. Italy may want to attack first and sacrifice to make the German job easier, but losing all those ships would be devastating to UK and unwind its value. Glad I wasn’t holding out hope that it was the best plan after Taranto. And, more allied weakness, thats welcome.

@simon33

Awesome to see folks discussing this great game.

My typical plans for Germany probably depart from prevailing wisdom. Would be glad to hear the counter analysis.

It sounds like folks are talking about moving UK ships that are usually destroyed by Germany turn 1. I always pile on and take out both the battleships and co.

Depending on what happens over the first turn, I like to have a plan to bum rush Soviet Union, with an option for Sea Lion. That typically means taking the hit in the pocketbook to buy a carrier out the gate.

If UK makes the wrong choices, you can buy the transports and whatnot to grab UK proper and Gibraltar on turn 3, and set a triple threat for Panama Canal on turn 4. That will mean leaving most or all of the big money islands in the Pacific alone with Japan, but can put US to a very tough decision before they are actually at war; lose the canal or Western US. For this to all work, Japan has to invest heavily in carriers.

All that said, it’s an either/or optional thing. If at the start of turn 2 sea lion and Panama triple threat don’t look promising, there’s still all the opportunity to focus everything on Soviet Union and when that happens it seems damn near unwinnable for the Russians in most cases.

The idea here is to have the option to go the other direction with things and ultimately take US after Sea Lion, or to take the path most travelled to Moscow.

We play the game with out of the box rules, no extra funds or set up provisos.

Would love to hear everyone’s thoughts. If anyone is in the inland empire/Pacific Northwest would be great to set up a game some time.

Happy holidays, go out there and roll some ones for the Gipper this Christmas.

I don’t get the advantage of taking the Panama Canal?

UK has 5 planes in SZ92 with an airbase. Normally 2 cruisers and at least 1DD. Now if Germany successfully attacks the SZ91 Cruiser then they will have at least one, maybe 2 less ships to sink but probably will have lost planes in SZ110. In fact, in this scenario it may be better to scramble SZ110 and not do the gibbastion strat, especially if they are also attacking SZ111.

@dermmanninderhochburg said in Germany playbook: overall strategy guide:

We play the game with out of the box rules, no extra funds or set up provisos.

That’s more or less an autowin for Axis. In the league there’s typically a bid for Allies of 30-60 IPC (OOB).

@trulpen @simon33

Ryan Vornick took 2022 Invitational AAA 9-0 as axis, 25 avg bid, bidding anything for axis to win, and COW J1JDOW every game. Sound familiar?

its been a long long road (almost 10 years now) for people to understand the META and address what is wrong with the OOB build. You continue to encounter people who were not part of our earlier discussions that insist that the axis are wildly overpowered and the only answer is, yes–that was conclusive in 2015.

It is always better to win a game during team selection than on the dice.

@taamvan the META is Ger is unstoppable if they push all in to Moscow.
You can hold Moscow but then you lose the Pacific or Med. We find US always coming too late.

@taamvan what is the correct allied response to J1, go for Germany?

@cornwallis said in Germany playbook: overall strategy guide:

@taamvan what is the correct allied response to J1, go for Germany?

Yes. It is also the correct allied response to not J1.

@dermmanninderhochburg On G1 its pretty standard to attack 110. Probably 111 and 106 are hit too. That doesn’t impact on the Gibraltar move. The navy that goes to Gibraltar is from the med and the cruiser in 91 and the destroyer in 109. The bid effects this too as it may mean there are more British ships that can join. An airbase is built at Gibraltar and UK air is landed there as well.

The advantage of this is 3 fold. 1 you contain/threaten Italy (without sacrificing ships) and discourage an early attack on Egypt. 2 you discourage a G3 sealion and threaten a landing in Normandy, etc. 3) you have a waypoint that allows you to shuttle air quickly from the Atlantic towards the mid east and then Moscow. And you have 5 air that can make the move there on the next turn.

The strategy that you describe works sometimes but will probably run into trouble when you play people with more experience that can anticipate it. If you don’t win the game by G/J5 you have probably lost it. And the US can afford to lose WUS for a turn and if Japan forgoes the money islands it will soon find itself being dramatically overspent and pressured on all sides. So I think this can sometimes be a fun strategy to try on an unsuspecting player, but not one I would rely on.

trulpen’s G2 DOW heading for Moscow
New player here - hope you are still active on this board - under this scenario, where Italy resources are needed for I3 can-opener, what is Italy’s recommended course of action in the Med and Africa assuming a successful Taranto raid on UK1?

@Colonel-Mustard You might want to @ a player to get their attention.

Trulpen and COW aren’t active on the boards anymore.

Personally if UK gets a successful Toranto and you are planning on a G2 or and I2/G3 attack on USSR, I would buy two mech and save 2 IPCs round one, and then buy more mechs round 2 - depending on how badly your income gets convoyed - maybe an armour as well if you can afford it. Can opening lets Italy grab most of the 1-IPC territories in USSR, which is important since they are usually losing most of their home IPCs to convoy by round 4/5 depending on Allied strategy. Usually I’m just building an infantry stack to hold Rome after the first couple rounds

@Stucifer @trulpen Thanks for your ideas. It does seem inevitable that post-successful-Taranto, Italy is going to be in a defensive crouch.

Tagging trulpen in case he receives the alert wants to add any thoughts.

Assuming there isn’t an awful dice roll during UK1, Italy will be primarily defensive for the rest of the game. Egypt should not fall regardless of the main Allied openers. Gibraltar might be briefly captured but will be reclaimed when America enters the game. Africa will eventually be dominated by the Allies. The Med cannot be kept free of British ships.

Nevertheless, Italy has crucial roles:

• Canopening for the Germans

• Protect the coastline from Allied invasion

• Make it difficult for Russia to claim Axis territories in Africa.

• delay convoy raids in the Med

• Make sure Rome and Berlin don’t get captured.

I build a mech and a tank on I1, and then mostly infantry after that. Perhaps a fighter on I1 if there are opportunities to use it in a limited action on I2.

@Arthur-Bomber-Harris Thank you ABH! Current game just started - Italy survived Taranto (on dice) and captured Egypt, Trans-Jordan, into Iraq and Syria. This is a global game so Allies sent planes in from Calcutta to support a firewall at Persia; add tanks churning out of S. Africa and the writing’s on the wall for Italy’s Mid-East/Africa force going into turn 4 but they’ve tied up UK Europe pretty well (every 3 tanks is a couple of planes not built) and will hold Mare Nostra through turn 4.

It’s reassuring to hear from such an experienced player that no matter what I were to do Italy is generally destined to shrink into a defensive posture - I can see that my current 28 IPCs will be the high point for Itay.

At this point rather than reinforce the doomed expeditionary force I think I’ll commit all to defense of the mediterranean coast.

If you captured Egypt and held it for a few turns, the game has shifted so much in the Axis favor that it is impossible for the Allies to compete again assuming good game play. But it sounds like inexperienced Allied and Axis players if the Italians survived Taranto.