I had to rewrite it. Oh well, I made it more brief.
Delta +1
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making it as easy as possible.
When Paris is first occupied by Axis forces, the remaining French areas go into a new disposition.
Vichy
Southern France
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia
Syria
MadagascarThese are new Vichy French areas and become strict neutrals. ( French Indo-China has it’s own special rules, so not included)
If any player attacks a Vichy area, it has no bearing on the other areas. They fight independently.
French West Africa, French Central Africa, and French Equatorial Africa are considered Free French, which are pro-allies. All French naval units are removed, along with all units located in Normandy. All other French units stay in place and fight as standing armies where they are.
Diplomacy rules are in effect only the cost is number of units in area ( obviously its not printed on the map)
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I think the french naval units were too important of an issue to just brush aside.
On France’s turn, roll a die for each of it’s naval units.
1 - Replace with UK unit
2 - Scuttled
3 - Stays French (roll again next turn)
4 - Stays French (roll again next turn)
5 - Scuttled
6 - Replace with German unitA French ship next to an allied territory will never become German.
A French ship next to an axis territory will never become UK.
If you roll those in either case, they are scuttled.I’d even consider writing some rules to run France as some sort of robotic power that no player controls (it just follows a flowchart for its actions on its turn)
I’d also add some more French naval units (one or two more) if that were the case.Remember, the UK attacked and killed over 1000 French sailors to prevent the French fleet from falling into the hands of the Germans.
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Yea normally i would say the ships are interned at Dakar ( French West Africa) and some rules just like you posted for scuttled ships, etc are made.
I had the intention of making it easy and to not disrupt balance ( Battleship going to axis).
IN any event the French navy had no impact on the war during post defeat. The modeling is supposed to reflect that, but like Xeno games does it could be fun to do the ‘lottery’ thing with the French navy.
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Wasn’t a French Battleship (and possibly others) taken back to New York, repaired and used in the war in the Atlantic?
I know there was also an Aircraft Carriers in the Caribbean Islands at (or near the start) of the war.
As far as the Naval units in Dakar, wouldn’t it make a lot of sense to change those to strict Neutral and attach them to the Territory of French West Africa? Then you could add the unit IPC totals to that terr. for Diplomacy… or make that sea zone a diplomatic entity of its own.
There-by making it a VERY costly affair to persuade (giving the Advantage to the Allies) while at the same time making it a bit of a bigger obstacle attacking players (Needing to eliminate naval units prior to attacking the coast).
Just an idea.
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Yea they had one French warship that fired at Normandy as shore bombardment, but one BB does not represent one unit ( more like 3-4) so it’s below the threshold. The main problem is balance. Some of these can have a dramatic effect for the axis, especially in naval and getting it outside the Baltic. If enough ships turned axis that would help Italy too.
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Well there is no BB on the board anyway… I was just saying that French vessels were converted to serve Allied purposes. As were a number of smaller vessels for Axis purposes.
I understand that having the “turning” of vessels can change the course of the game… isn’t that kind of the idea of creating “Neutral Diplomacy rules”? Creating options and variability?
However, the attempts to turn any such vessels requires an investment of I.P.C. Those investments are also taking away from other units that could be produced with said money. Therefore attempting (or even being successful) does not come without a real cost to other fronts and or strategies. And since both teams have the opportunity to acquire said units (and they are essentially being paid for at a 1:1 basis of cost) you’re not really disturbing the balance of the game. Instead what you’d be doing is adding a good element of variability to the predictability of each game. The real difference for game play would not come from being successful (as essentially you are already “paying” for the units… the real cost to game-play would be the effects of every attempt that was unsuccessful.
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But the benefit is also positional. The allies don’t want axis units running around in the Atlantic able to escape and perform a dash to the Medd, or worst around Cape Horn and mess with UK Indian fleet.
For the axis, they just killed most of the British navy on G1, now another navy turned for UK making that race easier for allies.
Just dealing with the land and air would almost cut out all the funny things that go on in games.
But we just got to playtest the rule that was proposed by Oztea. Thats the bottom line.
also i think the disposition should be final after the first roll…. rolling every turn makes the rules even more subject to glitching.
1 - Replace with UK unit
2 - Scuttled
3 - Stays French (roll again next turn)
4 - Stays French (roll again next turn)
5 - Scuttled
6 - Replace with German unit3 and 4 should be Vichy and that’s it without any further rolling. Vichy naval goto protect Vichy areas or be interned at Dakar ( FWA). If FWA is attacked the fleet is released to fight the enemy, and FWA is not convertible under diplomacy rules ( too much at stake).
FCA and FEA are Free French ( pro allies).
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Hmm… what is the point of creating Vichy rules if the end result is to not change anything at all?
And if having a role of 1 or 6 add units to either side, then how is that any different? Now you’re changing the game in 1 role without any risk/expenditure to either side? That seems more like a planned imbalance then anything else.
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The goal is not to create a disadvantageous ‘boon’ for either side.
It is to have realistic and playable Vichy rules. Vichy should be used by the axis to bolster the underbelly of Europe, so it does not have to commit forces for it’s defense ( at least less)
For the allies, they can use a few more Free French pieces and 3 more pro allies neutrals.
If you want basically roll for expensive French naval units and let the game get unbalanced once again with lottery rules, then it seems to mess up the game. The current OOB treats all post France defeat units as allied controlled forces that fight the axis. The changes reduce the allied advantage and give the axis some options. To further allow rolling of expensive naval units and have them mess up the game as they go axis ( potentially) is too far of a change.
The idea is to provide what the game claims it lacks: “This game doesn’t deal with the German installation of the Vichy government in France” ( p.10)
The goal here is to make rules that would look like they belong in the game, to bolster acceptance and credibility.
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Haven’t Vichy France house rule ideas been talked to death on this forum for years, are we that far off from a simple solution? what were some of the past ideas?
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Shouldn’t there be some kind of risk vs. reward situation if you are going to create something other than what already exists? It seems in keeping with the idea of re-thinking the Strict Neutral rules. If you are going to re-define the role of neutral nations (and their willingness to join one side over the other) shouldn’t the same metrics be used to determine the fate of Vichy territories?
Shouldn’t there be the same level of “Boon” advantage potentially available to both teams?
I was just suggesting something slightly different. Something that offered both sides the potential for an increased opportunity other than what already exists within the game.
Just curious? Why would you go to any length to create a new set of rules that doesn’t change the game environment at all? Doesn’t create more volatility rather than less?
What’s the point?
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Post what ideas you specifically have on Vichy ( like you like to see it). Otherwise we don’t move forward.
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I like IL’s suggestion, but I don’t like the re-roll…. is this close?
If Paris is Captured, the following 4 steps must happen immediately:
1. The capturing nation receives all of France’s income.
2. The major IC in Paris, is replaced with a minor IC.
3. The Paris VC token is given to the capturing nation.
4. The France player rolls 1d6 to determine the fate of all French sea units in SZ#93.1 = The fleet becomes British
2 = The fleet remains French
3 = The fleet remains French
4 = The fleet is removed
5 = The fleet is removed
6 = The fleet becomes German -
What is the disposition of land-Air units outside Southern France? ( Like Normandy and colonies).
Need to clarify which areas Vichy and Free French.
What and who controls the French units that “remain French” They may be out at sea…so the ones that roll French need to goto Vichy areas right?
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VICHY FRANCE
When Paris falls to Germany in the first round, both Southern France and Normandy automatically become German territories. However, the French infantry, and artillery units remain as the French underground. Germany may collect their IPC value, build units on their factories, and move units into both territories while French units are still there. However, the French units may not move, or be attacked by the axis until the territory is liberated by an allied force.
During Germany’s collect income phase, the French units that remain (if any) may sabotage (convoy rules) @ 1 dice per unit for a maximum of their territories IPC value. France no longer has a turn, *all other remaining French units on the board move during the United Kingdoms turn by the UK player. If Germany wishes to avoid being sabotaged in one or both territories, the French units must be attacked and removed before (or on the same turn) Paris falls.
*Except for the ships in sea zone #93.
After Paris falls…. the UK player rolls a dice to determine their fate.
1 = The fleet becomes British
2 = The fleet remains French
3 = The fleet remains French
4 = The fleet is removed
5 = The fleet is removed
6 = The fleet becomes GermanThere is a little bit here for both sides… Thoughts?
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both
Southern Franceand Normandy automatically become German territoryThe Vichy capital is in southern France. To give Southern France to Germany is farcical IMO. Let them attack it like they did in 1942.
words like the ‘French underground’ need to be explained. The entire concept needs fleshing out and language similar to OOB in terms of style.
So also what is the list of Vichy areas?
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VICHY FRANCE
When Paris falls to Germany, Normandy automatically becomes German controlled and Germany may use the Factory. However, the French land and air units do not perform non-combat movement and become either Vichy ( strict neutral) or Free French ( controlled UK player on his turn). However, the French Vichy units are considered strict neutral and fight any player that attacks them. They are subject to diplomacy rules. Below is the list of French areas and their disposition:
Vichy Areas: ( strict neutral)
Southern Europe
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia
Syria
Madagascar
French Indo-China**FIC is a special case, strict neutral applies to all nations except Japan. In any case OOB rules prevail.
Free French Areas: ( pro-allies)
French West Africa
French Central Africa
French Equatorial AfricaDuring Germany’s collect income phase, the Free French naval units that remain (if any) can perform convoy disruptions* @ 1 dice per unit for a maximum of their territories IPC value. France no longer has a turn and all other Free French units on the board move during the United Kingdoms turn. If Germany wishes to avoid convoy disruptions in one or both territories, the French units must be attacked and removed before (or on the same turn) Paris falls.
*No convoy disruptions Free French naval units in sea zone #93.
Once Paris falls the UK player rolls a dice to determine the fate of her Navy:
1 = The fleet becomes British
2 = The fleet remains French
3 = The fleet remains French
4 = The fleet is removed
5 = The fleet is removed
6 = The fleet becomes GermanNote: If Paris is liberated by the Allies, Vichy areas become Pro- Allies. France does not get restored as a full player with her own turn functions.
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Even though it’s raw, I’m ok with what you’ve got, but I may not be the right guy for this rule. You have more house rule experience and history knowledge about Free France and the puppet government, I may not be able to add much value on this one. maybe some one else can flesh that one out with you.
I really want this……
1. Make a condition in one of Germany’s NOs that the Baltic sea must be free of allied ships.
and…
2. Damaged Battleships can not bombard during an amphibious assault.
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@Young:
1. Make a condition in one of Germany’s NOs that the Baltic sea must be free of allied ships.
EXACTLY!! The Swedish Iron Ore NO should definitely include this. I just had a game last weekend with a very odd situation. Russia decided to be very aggressive and purchased some naval units in SZ 115: 1 CA, 2 DD and 3 Transports in addition to the 1 CA and 1 SS they start out with. The idea was to try a sneak invasion of Berlin to end the war quickly. Well, Berlin had too many units but they did manage to invade W Germany and Denmark. The invasion of Denmark was successful but Germany repelled the invasion of W Germany by the skin of it’s teeth (1 fighter left).
Germany got Denmark back and also took Leningrad next round so no more naval invasions were attempted by Russia because they had no way of getting more land units for their transports. With Denmark retaken by Germany, those Soviet ships were stuck in the Baltic sea.
Now, the German NO states: 5 IPCs if Germany controls Norway and Denmark and Sweeden is not Pro-Allied or Allied controlled. Well, Sweeden was still strict neutral and Germany did control Norway and Denmark so this was technically true. However, here is this rather large Russian fleet sitting in the Baltic with nothing really to threaten it. Germany’s navy was almost non-existant at this time and what Luftwaffe there was were needed in other area and couldn’t be risked by attacking Soviet warships that were basically not hurting Germany at all. Don’t you think a sizable Soviet fleet like this would disrupt commerce between Sweeden and Germany?
One other note: Before Barbarossa occurs, or Russia’s Combat Movement phase on Round 4 (when they can declare war on Europe Axis), Russia is considered neutral so those Soviet ships in SZ 115 would also be neutral, not Allied. Therefore, Germany should be able to collect the Sweedish NO during the first 4 rounds even with those Russian ships there in the Baltic. However, once Germany attacks Russia, or Russia declares war on the Axis, then those Russian ships need to be dealt with by Germany for Germany to continue getting the Sweedish NO for the rest of the game.
This would force Germany to deal with them and not simply ignore those ships, which often happens in our games. What do you think? Good Idea? -
The Allies ( except Soviet Union) cannot enter the Baltic unless they control Denmark at the start of their turn right?…these are the straights rules already in the rulebook?
Same with Gibraltar and the Medd.