I have a question about the following rule in this video explanation…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFbqKD9mghc&lc=z13hzhsitrj3er5pt04cep4r3oqrt1dqdkw0k
If after the first round of combat in which the 3 Italy fighters scramble, the Italians have 1 fighter remaining and the Americans have lost both the aircraft carrier and fighter, can the Americans retreat the transports and subs?
The transports can definitely retreat. Contrary to your comment I saw on youtube, the transports are NOT automatically sunk. That is ONLY when they are on defense. I need to check on the submarine issue - be right back
I do know the submarines can retreat with the transports because the transports established a retreat route even though the subs never moved. Since you can retreat everything to a zone that at least one unit passed through (the transports established that)
I want to make sure the subs are actually involved in the battle though -
I’m not sure it’s addressed in the rulebook. I just double checked in a few places in the rulebook though, so not sure. Let’s just have Krieghund handle this one.
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13). If it is a combat situation for the subs and they did not move away in the combat movement phase, then they can retreat with the transports to a zone the transports came from. If it is not considered a combat situation for the subs, then they can move in the non-combat movement phase.
I think you need Krieghund to tell you whether this is considered a combat situation for the subs or not, unless someone else can find it clearly in the rulebook somewhere.
Thank you very much for your research, the reason I made the video was because I thought it was interesting that the subs that began their turn in that seazone, couldn’t move during non-combat because a battle was created there in a phase prior to non combat movement. Therefore I understood from this forum that the subs were now part of the battle whether they wanted to or not, and regardless of the fact that they can’t fire at air units making them useless in a battle they are forced to participate in. However, I never thought about how this impacts retreating but I suppose it makes sense to me now that even if the transports were the last units standing against a lone fighter, they would still have the ability to retreat as long as at least 1 combat round was complete (I will for sure make a correction to that question on my comments board). So like you were saying, the only thing left to figure out is, because the subs began their turn in that seazone… can they retreat? and in what direction?
So this is what I want to write back, but it still feels wrong… is this comment correct?
Correction, as long as at least 1 combat round is complete… attacking units can retreat even if transports are the last units remaining. I’m still getting info on this scenario, I’ll get back to you when I learn more.
Some of my thoughts regarding this interesting subject:
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13)….
Remember that SZ 91 is considered as friendly until the US have finished their combat moves. It’s only the scramble (following immediately after the combat moves) of the Italian fighters that leads to a sea battle. So the “Sea Units starting in Hostile sea Zones”-exceptions do not match. Just the possibility of an eventual scramble does not make a seazone hostile. The attacker may not change any combat movements after the defender has scrambled.
I think you need Krieghund to tell you whether this is considered a combat situation for the subs or not, unless someone else can find it clearly in the rulebook somewhere.
Here it is:
@rulebook:
Amphibious Assault Sequence
1. Sea combat
…
Step 1. Sea Combat
If there are defending surface warships and/or scrambled
air units, sea combat occurs. If there are only defending
submarines and/or transports, the attacker can choose to
ignore those units or conduct sea combat.
If sea combat occurs, all attacking and defending sea
units present must participate in the battle. (Even if the
attacker chose to ignore defending submarines and/or
transports, they will still be involved in the battle if the
defender scrambles air units and forces a sea battle.)
together with
@rulebook:
Can’t Hit Air Units: When attacking or defending,
submarines can’t hit air units.
Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
in the battle.
So, yes, the subs are part of the sea battle, they are considered as attacking, but they can’t hit the fighters and cannot be hit by the fighters.
And yes, the subs have to (not may) retreat together with the transports (on the transport route):
@rulebook:
Condition B: Attacker Retreats
The attacker (never the defender) can retreat during this
step. Move all attacking land and sea units in that combat
that are on the battle strip to a single adjacent friendly
space from which at least 1 of the attacking land or sea
units moved. In the case of sea units, that space must
have been friendly at the start of the turn. All such units
must retreat together to the same territory or sea zone,
regardless of where they came from.
HTH :-)
Very impressed by the research - couple thoughts in return -
Assuming you are right about the subs being part of the combat (I know it says “all”, but I am not fully convinced that it is intended to include submarines until I hear from Krieghund. I’ve seen stranger things), it would be possible for the subs to stay in Z91 if they submerge before the retreat is done. Since the defender had only planes, if the attacker wanted the subs to stay in Z91 he would of course submerge them immediately in the first round.
YG, attacking transports that are still alive after a round of combat can always retreat if they came from another zone during the combat movement. Auto-kill is only for transports that are on defense, because the end result is inevitable. It is possible, therefore, for some transports to get destroyed when attacking (of course they are taken off last), and some to survive and retreat. This is true in all amphibious assault situations where the transport has established a retreat route (it is possible that a transport never moved and is trapped)
P@nther, if you are right then the only way to get those subs out of Z91 for this attacker would be to attack an enemy ship somewhere else. With tons of respect to you, I think we need Krieghund to weigh in on whether step 1, sea combat, is intended to include the submarines in this situation.
Tough questions, YG! Bravo
@P@nther:
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13)….
Remember that SZ 91 is considered as friendly until the US have finished their combat moves. It’s only the scramble (following immediately after the combat moves) of the Italian fighters that leads to a sea battle. So the “Sea Units starting in Hostile sea Zones”-exceptions do not match. Just the possibility of an eventual scramble does not make a seazone hostile. The attacker may not change any combat movements after the defender has scrambled.
The exception does match. Read exception #2 more closely. It says you can anticipate scrambles to amphibious assaults. So the subs could definitely have moved in the combat movement phase to avoid this combat
@Young:
I have a question about the following rule in this video explanation…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFbqKD9mghc&lc=z13hzhsitrj3er5pt04cep4r3oqrt1dqdkw0k
If after the first round of combat in which the 3 Italy fighters scramble, the Italians have 1 fighter remaining and the Americans have lost both the aircraft carrier and fighter, can the Americans retreat the transports and subs?
The transports can definitely retreat. Contrary to your comment I saw on youtube, the transports are NOT automatically sunk. That is ONLY when they are on defense. I need to check on the submarine issue - be right back
I do know the submarines can retreat with the transports because the transports established a retreat route even though the subs never moved. Since you can retreat everything to a zone that at least one unit passed through (the transports established that)I want to make sure the subs are actually involved in the battle though -
I’m not sure it’s addressed in the rulebook. I just double checked in a few places in the rulebook though, so not sure. Let’s just have Krieghund handle this one.
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13). If it is a combat situation for the subs and they did not move away in the combat movement phase, then they can retreat with the transports to a zone the transports came from. If it is not considered a combat situation for the subs, then they can move in the non-combat movement phase.
I think you need Krieghund to tell you whether this is considered a combat situation for the subs or not, unless someone else can find it clearly in the rulebook somewhere.
@Young:
Thank you very much for your research, the reason I made the video was because I thought it was interesting that the subs that began their turn in that seazone, couldn’t move during non-combat because a battle was created there in a phase prior to non combat movement. Therefore I understood from this forum that the subs were now part of the battle whether they wanted to or not, and regardless of the fact that they can’t fire at air units making them useless in a battle they are forced to participate in. However, I never thought about how this impacts retreating but I suppose it makes sense to me now that even if the transports were the last units standing against a lone fighter, they would still have the ability to retreat as long as at least 1 combat round was complete (I will for sure make a correction to that question on my comments board). So like you were saying, the only thing left to figure out is, because the subs began their turn in that seazone… can they retreat? and in what direction?
So this is what I want to write back, but it still feels wrong… is this comment correct?
Correction, as long as at least 1 combat round is complete… attacking units can retreat even if transports are the last units remaining. I’m still getting info on this scenario, I’ll get back to you when I learn more.
@P@nther:
Some of my thoughts regarding this interesting subject:
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13)….
Remember that SZ 91 is considered as friendly until the US have finished their combat moves. It’s only the scramble (following immediately after the combat moves) of the Italian fighters that leads to a sea battle. So the “Sea Units starting in Hostile sea Zones”-exceptions do not match. Just the possibility of an eventual scramble does not make a seazone hostile. The attacker may not change any combat movements after the defender has scrambled.
I think you need Krieghund to tell you whether this is considered a combat situation for the subs or not, unless someone else can find it clearly in the rulebook somewhere.
Here it is:
@rulebook:
Amphibious Assault Sequence
1. Sea combat
…
Step 1. Sea Combat
If there are defending surface warships and/or scrambled
air units, sea combat occurs. If there are only defending
submarines and/or transports, the attacker can choose to
ignore those units or conduct sea combat.
If sea combat occurs, all attacking and defending sea
units present must participate in the battle. (Even if the
attacker chose to ignore defending submarines and/or
transports, they will still be involved in the battle if the
defender scrambles air units and forces a sea battle.)together with
@rulebook:
Can’t Hit Air Units: When attacking or defending,
submarines can’t hit air units.
Can’t Be Hit by Air Units: When attacking or defending,
hits scored by air units can’t be assigned to submarines
unless there is a destroyer that is friendly to the air units
in the battle.So, yes, the subs are part of the sea battle, they are considered as attacking, but they can’t hit the fighters and cannot be hit by the fighters.
And yes, the subs have to (not may) retreat together with the transports (on the transport route):
@rulebook:
Condition B: Attacker Retreats
The attacker (never the defender) can retreat during this
step. Move all attacking land and sea units in that combat
that are on the battle strip to a single adjacent friendly
space from which at least 1 of the attacking land or sea
units moved. In the case of sea units, that space must
have been friendly at the start of the turn. All such units
must retreat together to the same territory or sea zone,
regardless of where they came from.HTH :-)
Very impressed by the research - couple thoughts in return -
Assuming you are right about the subs being part of the combat (I know it says “all”, but I am not fully convinced that it is intended to include submarines until I hear from Krieghund. I’ve seen stranger things), it would be possible for the subs to stay in Z91 if they submerge before the retreat is done. Since the defender had only planes, if the attacker wanted the subs to stay in Z91 he would of course submerge them immediately in the first round.
YG, attacking transports that are still alive after a round of combat can always retreat if they came from another zone during the combat movement. Auto-kill is only for transports that are on defense, because the end result is inevitable. It is possible, therefore, for some transports to get destroyed when attacking (of course they are taken off last), and some to survive and retreat. This is true in all amphibious assault situations where the transport has established a retreat route (it is possible that a transport never moved and is trapped)
P@nther, if you are right then the only way to get those subs out of Z91 for this attacker would be to attack an enemy ship somewhere else. Something isn’t right, here. With tons of respect to you, I think we need Krieghund to weigh in on whether step 1, sea combat, is intended to include the submarines in this situation.
Tough questions, YG! Bravo
@P@nther:
Because there are only defending fighters, I’m not sure that’s considered “participating in combat” for the subs. If it is, then the subs could have been moved away from Z91 to avoid a combat situation (one of the 4 exceptions on page 13)….
Remember that SZ 91 is considered as friendly until the US have finished their combat moves. It’s only the scramble (following immediately after the combat moves) of the Italian fighters that leads to a sea battle. So the “Sea Units starting in Hostile sea Zones”-exceptions do not match. Just the possibility of an eventual scramble does not make a seazone hostile. The attacker may not change any combat movements after the defender has scrambled.
The exception does match. Read exception #2 more closely. It says you can anticipate scrambles to amphibious assaults. So the subs could definitely have moved in the combat movement phase to avoid this combat
Awesome collaboration guys, looks like I’ll have to make a new video for this subject :|
P@nther is right, except for the last bit that Gamerman contradicted.
Great clarification here. I don’t think this has ever happened for me though.
It’s pretty hard to find something not already considered in the rules!
Awesome discussion, indeed. :-)
Thank you
YG - for bringing it up
Gamerman01 - for bringing me back to the correct path concerning that “escape SZ-issue”
Krieghund - for the confirmation
I forgot. Hence asking. If Italy declares war upon Russia and invades Eastern Poland and captures it, can Germany move troops into that territory during the NCM phase?
This is what is in the pdf file:
“If your power isn’t at war, you can’t move your units into territories belonging to another friendly power or a friendly neutral”
Germany is at war with the UK at this point, but not with Russia.
At the beginning of the game Germany and Italy are already allied and both at war.
Germany may move units into Italian territories right from the beginning (and vice versa).
When Italy captures a Russian territory this territory becomes Italian.
So Germany may move units into this Italian territory.
HTH :-)
@P@nther:
At the beginning of the game Germany and Italy are already allied and both at war.
Germany may move units into Italian territories right from the beginning (and vice versa).When Italy captures a Russian territory this territory becomes Italian.
So Germany may move units into this Italian territory.HTH :-)
Thought as much. Just wanted to be sure :P.
Great clarification here. I don’t think this has ever happened for me though.
It’s pretty hard to find something not already considered in the rules!
Yeah, I’m with you
Up vote
I had to insert a comment into my PDF copy of the rules because it’s one of those things I’m pretty sure I’ll forget by the time it ever comes up again
Yes, thank you to everyone, it was a question from one of my YouTube subscribers that made me think deeper and question the retreat options in that situation.
Can the Flying Tigers (the Chinese plane) overfly the sea zones adjacent to China?
@A&A:
At the beginning of the game, China has a United States fighter unit located on the map. This represents the American volunteer group the Flying Tigers. This fighter is considered part of the Chinese forces for purposes of movement and combat. It cannot leave the territories that Chinese occupation is restricted to, even to attack and return. If it is destroyed, the US player cannot replace this fighter unit for China.
I think they can’t (fly over the sea), but I’m not entirely sure. Does movement that starts in Chinese territory and ends in Chinese territory actually constitute “leaving” Chinese territory when it uses a sea zone? I’m not talking attack-and-return, which is clearly excluded by the rules, and would indeed require a combat move out of Chinese territory - but I wonder about normal movement.
It’s hardly ever relevant in practical play of course, but it would shorten the distance between Manchuria and Kiangsu or Kwantung.
Chinese fighter absolutely cannot ever fly over sea - only Chinese land + Hong Kong and Burma
Rule says “It cannot leave the territories that Chinese occupation is restricted to”
Thank you…. though the rule isn’t 100% clear to me, because the concept of “leaving” isn’t really described in the rules. Anyway, it implies that Manchuria to Kiangsu is a distance of 3 to the Chinese plane, and 2 to all other planes.
Thanks for the confirmation.
Any time
Leaving means…… leaving. At all
