Face-to-Face Tournament Rules

@squirecam:

@questioneer:

@smo63:

The point I am trying to make is the use of AI in a FTF event. �� I would like that a professor of your stature would understand the simplicity of why I typically don’t permit electronic devices in tournment games at the CON’s. �� If one wants to do the math in their head and right it down, AND IT DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE GAME AT HAND, then have at it. �� **And as long as your opponent can do the same thing without taking away from the game at hand, have at it.�  **

But I don’t care if an app on ones phone is free, or easily accessable to you and the other 5% that might be intersted in that, if your opponent sits down and doesn’t have their phone with them, and doesn’t have the app you have, then I am not going to permit it. ��

Ok, long overlydrawn Batman analogy aside, your saying here that if I play in your tournament and I also allow my opponent to use my phone also with the AACalc, giving him “equal access to the tool” (heck I’ll even show him how to use it) then all is fair and I can use it right???�  That’s what it sounds like to me.

You cannot use electronic calculators. Period.

Yeap…it is now in the rules as well.  Thanks Q…

http://smo63.fatcow.com/pdf/G40rules81.pdf

and

http://smo63.fatcow.com/pdf/2012EndTimeRules730.pdf

Dave,  Also above is the stalling rules that you asked about…

Greg

@questioneer:

@smo63:

The point I am trying to make is the use of AI in a FTF event. � I would like that a professor of your stature would understand the simplicity of why I typically don’t permit electronic devices in tournment games at the CON’s. � If one wants to do the math in their head and right it down, AND IT DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE GAME AT HAND, then have at it. � **And as long as your opponent can do the same thing without taking away from the game at hand, have at it. **

But I don’t care if an app on ones phone is free, or easily accessable to you and the other 5% that might be intersted in that, if your opponent sits down and doesn’t have their phone with them, and doesn’t have the app you have, then I am not going to permit it. �Â

Ok, long overlydrawn Batman analogy aside, your saying here that if I play in your tournament and I also allow my opponent to use my phone also with the AACalc, giving him “equal access to the tool” (heck I’ll even show him how to use it) then all is fair and I can use it right???  That’s what it sounds like to me.

Greg,

Looks like you tried to answer but the forum didn’t pick it up for some reason…answer to this???

@questioneer:

@questioneer:

@smo63:

The point I am trying to make is the use of AI in a FTF event. �� I would like that a professor of your stature would understand the simplicity of why I typically don’t permit electronic devices in tournment games at the CON’s. �� If one wants to do the math in their head and right it down, AND IT DOES NOT TAKE AWAY FROM THE GAME AT HAND, then have at it. �� **And as long as your opponent can do the same thing without taking away from the game at hand, have at it.� **

But I don’t care if an app on ones phone is free, or easily accessable to you and the other 5% that might be intersted in that, if your opponent sits down and doesn’t have their phone with them, and doesn’t have the app you have, then I am not going to permit it. ��

Ok, long overlydrawn Batman analogy aside, your saying here that if I play in your tournament and I also allow my opponent to use my phone also with the AACalc, giving him “equal access to the tool” (heck I’ll even show him how to use it) then all is fair and I can use it right???�  That’s what it sounds like to me.

Greg,

Looks like you tried to answer but the forum didn’t pick it up for some reason…answer to this???

Yeah, can’t find what I wrote now?  Oh, well…

I think he agreed with something you said…and the server blew up. :evil:

You might be right…all I know is that I can’t find it.  Regardless, that is my story and I am sticky to it…

@smo63:

You might be right…all I know is that I can’t find it.  Regardless, that is my story and I am sticky to it…

So…what did you say about my question above???

Not sure, what were we talking about?  FTF tournaments?

@smo63:

Not sure, what were we talking about?  FTF tournaments?

Yes, go back and read.

Just looked at your new “end time rules”.  A little more refined and detailed which is nice.  No phones/electronic devices rule- fair enough.  Don’t really see how this “cheats” the game or how its “not fair” even if I let my opponent use it but whatever, its your tourny, your call.  I could play with or without it.  Having these available would speed up the game and end time rules wouldn’t be such an issue.

Speaking of which I would have to practice using these end time rules a couple of times.  Someone could cry wolf as Allies to speed the game up.  If I were Allies I would cry wolf in the early rounds, as I can play the first few rounds of any of these games fairly fast.  As Axis one would want to slow the game down.  The GM would be the one to determine what defines “stalling”.  This is why I like chess clocks because then that is out of the GMs hands.  One can’t argue with the clock.  However the financial side of chess clocks makes it tough on everyone which I understand.  With these end time rules one could, work the system, to tailor it to their opening(s).

Also, I do like the minimum round column, however, if both are playing slow and they don’t get to 6 six rounds by the end of the stoppage time, are they both disqualified???  I could see both pointing the finger at each other blaming the other team for “stalling”.  Don’t get me wrong its a much better system than before but not foolproof.  I’ll have to try the end time system at home along with the chess clock for a couple of games.

For minimum round column- G40 should be 11-12 not 8-10.  All the other games go a round past the hours given and even though G40 has more countries to take a turn most of those countries are played very quickly.  France and China are nil.  ANZAC and Italy are fairly quick also.  The rest of the countries take no more time than the 42 game.

I’m not ripping your system Greg, I’m just interested how they playout vs. using a chess clock.  I’m sure for most of the players there it works.  For the more competitive AA players like the ones I know here on this site, they would work the system and exploit the loopholes.  I post results from these test games in the next month or two.  Should be interesting.  Have fun at GenCon!

Dave,

Interesting thought - to be honest, I am not sure I looked at using a calculator for purchasing purposes - but with SBR and such, I could see where that might come in handy.

We always looked at it through the lens of using something like that to help people determine how much attack or defense they needed for a particular battle. That, I believe, is still something that will probably never be allowed.

MM

@djensen:

Chess clocks are easily manipulated. It’s my turn, I make attacks, you need to chose casualties, and instead you can sit there and debate about it for minutes eating away at my time.

In chess, a player never has to wait during their own time for their opponent to do something.

I don’t think chess clocks are the answer.

Wrong, you don’t know how to apply them like I’m talking about.  That being said, chess clocks aren’t the answer ONLY for financial difficulties- $50 a clock for a good one.

@djensen:

@squirecam:

You cannot use electronic calculators. Period.

This was painful after nights of very few hours of sleep and your opponent hits you with a strategic bombing. A calculator would’ve speed up some of my purchase optimizations. Beyond that, I didn’t see much need for it.

With a calculator, the rule should be like the dice. Feel free to bring one but if you opponent requests to use it, you can’t say no. If both players don’t have one, no problem.

Point being it would speed up the game to some extent- not a lot- but some.  There’s really NO valid reason why these can’t be used.  Haven’t heard one yet.  Foolish but hey, not my tournament.

Bidding on rounds and IPCs is interesting but if you bid 6 rounds and don’t get that far- what happens.

4-7 rounds for a 42 game DOES NOT determine a true winner- that’s ridiculous.  I’m so glad I did waste my money to go down there.  That makes AA.org tournaments so much better IMHO

Players should be planning their purchases, whilst their opponent is doing THIER turn.

A PEN and PAPER is all that is required, if it’s becoming too much of a headache.

@questioneer:

@djensen:

@squirecam:

You cannot use electronic calculators. Period.

This was painful after nights of very few hours of sleep and your opponent hits you with a strategic bombing. A calculator would’ve speed up some of my purchase optimizations. Beyond that, I didn’t see much need for it.

With a calculator, the rule should be like the dice. Feel free to bring one but if you opponent requests to use it, you can’t say no. If both players don’t have one, no problem.

Point being it would speed up the game to some extent- not a lot- but some.  There’s really NO valid reason why these can’t be used.  Haven’t heard one yet.  Foolish but hey, not my tournament.

Bidding on rounds and IPCs is interesting but if you bid 6 rounds and don’t get that far- what happens.

4-7 rounds for a 42 game DOES NOT determine a true winner- that’s ridiculous.  I’m so glad I did waste my money to go down there.  That makes AA.org tournaments so much better IMHO

Q, a calculator is fine.  All one does with that is make sure their math is correct.  It is NOT a dice roller or odds calculator.  There is a big difference.  If you feel that it is needed to speed things up, have at it…But the math in most cases should be simple enough…the point is, and Dave hits it on the head, when you are in a situation as one is in one of the tournaments, knowing what to buy, how much, and when is part of the strategy.  Having to go to a calculator to see if one should attack a certain area on the board based on an odds calculator is a whole different story.

And what do you mean you haven’t heard a valid reason yet?  You just aren’t listening.  And no, it is not foolish, the only thing that is, are statements like that.

You know, if is funny, we get back from a fantastic CON.  Things went almost flawless.  Had great discussions about how to possibly make things better for the future, etc.  Chess clocks, time, rounds etc. In every single case where we discussed the events in length, we had civil discussions because those talking about whatever the topic was, understood first hand what we being discussed.

And I know that some of you have been to GEN CON and have experienced events first hand.  But I am not sure why there is so much negativety when it comes to the discussion on the boards vs. when one talks about it FTF.  Again, I believe MM might have said it somewhere bad in a thread long ago, it sure is nice to hide behind the screen of your computer when one really doesn’t know understand the concept of what is being discussed? :mrgreen:

@smo63:

You know, if is funny, we get back from a fantastic CON.  Things went almost flawless.  Had great discussions about how to possibly make things better for the future, etc.  Chess clocks, time, rounds etc. In every single case where we discussed the events in length, we had civil discussions because those talking about whatever the topic was, understood first hand what we being discussed.Â

And I know that some of you have been to GEN CON and have experienced events first hand.  But I am not sure why there is so much negativety when it comes to the discussion on the boards vs. when one talks about it FTF.  Again, I believe MM might have said it somewhere bad in a thread long ago, it sure is nice to hide behind the screen of your computer when one really doesn’t know understand the concept of what is being discussed? :mrgreen:

I’m going to be very blunt/honest/direct here. But hear me out.

it sure is nice to hide behind the screen of your computer

This is exactly the problem Smo, you hit the nail on the head. But unfortunately, you are also a primary contributer to the crime yourself.

Look for example here…

“I guess that what boards are for, so people can make aimless random comments about things that aren’t really relevant, and then proceed to start a debate over the issue.”

People tend to get offended when you paint them all with the same brush.  Just like you get offended when people have anything to say (constructive or not) that deviates from your own personal Agenda for Gencon.

At the end of the day, it’s your gig, your tournament, and your deal, thus the way you want to see it - is the way it will be.  The tournament is a favour to the fans.  So stop caring about what people you’re having disagreements with (who often don’t attend your event) think…

More importantly stop GENERALIZING that everyone who’s from the forum side of the world has a hate on for you, or is stupid, foolish, incompetent, and unable to contribute value.  Guys like Questioneer mean you no harm/foul. But it’s constantly interpretted by yourself ‘as such’.

That’s on YOU.

You’ll learn that YES there are idiots who HIDE amongst the community of the internet, in places like this, and who whine about everything…

but there’s no reason to burn down the house just to kill a few mice.

Realize this:

• Gen Con was a success,
• MORE people will come next year - likely including me,
• and this forum is NOT YOUR ENEMY.

The problem is just one or two people who are VERY JEALOUS of your success and popularity.  People who are just as jealous of other personalities on the internet, as they are of the ones in real life.  Ignore their spit spat - and DON’T ENGAGE them.  It just fits to make you look bad, because when you strike out, you tend to strike at all of us here; and that’s not cool.

Well said Garg,

That being said things are looking good for me to come down next year also.  Greg and I have had some jabs at each other.  I don’t want to get into that right now- we’ll just say that we disagree on a few things about tournament play vs. online play and players vs FTF play and players.

On a more productive side, as Greg said, a DICE ROLLER is a big difference because of the “trust” factor of the program used- that’s understandable- a little paranoid- but understandable.  However, having a CALCULATOR and having an ODDS CALCULATOR is really no different.  They both essentially count the total pips and divide by 6 to get the number of hits.  The ODDS CALCULATOR just does it faster.  That’s it.  So no Greg, you HAVEN’T yet given a solid reason yet as to why these can’t be used.

I like the way the G40 tourny is set up- hope it stays that way.  Though I think the LEAST number of rounds attain should be 10 not 8.  BTW, if the teams don’t reach the number of rounds attained then what happens??? Are they both disqualified???  Both accusing each other of stalling???

As for AA50- I have always disliked that format- 42 w/o NatObj.  Much preferred 41 with NatObj.  I understand why you do this though.  I just don’t like it- so I will never play in that tourny.

AA42- I really think this the true tournament game- it is a tweener between 1st ed and AA50 w/o all the bells and whistles to worry about.  I think it deserves another hour- up to 6hrs per round, because 4-6 rounds IMO doesn’t give you a good picture of whose winning.  At 6hours and hopefully faster play by next year 6-8 rounds is more attainable and better served.

Anyway, my 2 cents.  I’ll probably come down next year but I may or may not play Axis and Allies.  Last time I came all I played was the Catan tourny and AAtourny.  I’m tempted to come down and just enjoy the Con.  I don’t know we’ll see.  Maybe I’ll come to Origins to play AA and come to GenCon to just enjoy it- we’ll see.