Sounds like the Allies are doing really well. The allies need a meat grinder to wear down the axis with the allies’ numerical superiority.
The Japan Playbook
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Been out of the loop for a long while. Enjoying this thread, I now really want to try a J1 DOW on the western allies.
But I’m interested to hear what to do J1 with 18inf and 2 aa on Amur R1.
Is it better to ignore this stack for now and proceed as usual (ie going south) whilst leaving say 10 inf and 1ftr in Manchuria? Or smash Amur with everything you can J1.
Seems like if I do the latter, Japan gets set back in the Pacific and out of position straight away since I’m used to going straight for DEI and India. Furthermore the Mongolian inf become Russian which is annoying because more resources need to be directed away from what I really want to be doing in the South.
Maybe if Japan attacks the Russian stack at Amur on J1, Germany must be ready to go all out on Russia and not bother with Sealion. Japan should then also push on Russia since were now at war and I’ve done the dirty work of clearing them out in far east. I don’t necessarily want play this way, it just seems Russia has kinda invited me to go this route now. Thoughts?
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When Russia puts everything in Amur R1, I always like to take it out right away. Just delay attacking the allies until J2 or J3.
Those 18 infantry are all Russia has in the east, and there aren’t any reinforcements likely to be coming, other than the Mongolians, which really aren’t much of a threat. Generally this move hurts Russia more than it hurts Japan in my experience. It definitely makes it easier for Germany to take Russia. -
War war war.
Even if Russia doesn’t stack Amur, attack the hell out of them. You both are going to lose troops, but 6 extra infantry from Mongolia makes very little difference in the long run. As Japan, you are gaining IPC’s by taking the territory. You are also making Russia watch its back-side while dealing with Germany. You are doing J1? Then kill them J2 or J3. The earlier, the easier.
You can leave the road open in China, and still control the islands and push Russia/India. You just don’t push as far into China and counter-attack their counter-attack. Eventually, the Chinese have the road as the only territory they own. I’ve only seen it in action once and it was from a very good player in our live game.
J1 is a great move. The only problem I’ve had with it, is the Atlantic Slam. Germany or Italy (depending on troop placement) usually falls before I can get the VC’s needed to win in the PAC. Stack Hawaii and Sydney and its better luck next time.
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shameless bump
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I do the J1 every time, good chance of getting Island NO round 2, I build up to 4 factories on the mainland, bomb and convoy India til they can’t buy a single unit, and I push China back to their last 3 territories. Everything else after that is all progress for Japan.
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Hey Cow,
since you are using tripleA anyway, why not add a tsvg-file of your J1/J2 playbook? Maybe even in your original post (if that’s even possible).
Regarding the J1/J2 openers:
I have played as allies against this several times now. My opponents were all strong enough so I can say with certainty that you should warn axis players of the +40/+20 IPCs the USA will have for a J1DOW or J2DOW respectively. This is another pitfall, in addition to the Yunnan-one you already mentioned.Not digging too deeply into all the variable strategies but those extra IPCs for the USA are going to hurt the one the USA chooses to kill first.
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Man I still have not got around to updating my j2 lol. Can someone do that for me lol. I tend to almost always do J1 dow unless Russia knee deep in china…. in which case I will setup for a J2 a certain way.
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@Young:
I do the J1 every time, good chance of getting Island NO round 2, I build up to 4 factories on the mainland, bomb and convoy India til they can’t buy a single unit, and I push China back to their last 3 territories. Everything else after that is all progress for Japan.
Isn’t this a big blow to the Germans & Italians with USA in the war turn 1? Curious what your buys are with this strategy. I assume you bring the entire IJN down to Philippines/Borneo?
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@IKE:
@Young:
I do the J1 every time, good chance of getting Island NO round 2, I build up to 4 factories on the mainland, bomb and convoy India til they can’t buy a single unit, and I push China back to their last 3 territories. Everything else after that is all progress for Japan.
Isn’t this a big blow to the Germans & Italians with USA in the war turn 1? Curious what your buys are with this strategy. I assume you bring the entire IJN down to Philippines/Borneo?
Gaining early position in the south Pacific is much more important than keeping money out of America’s pockets. My J1 purchases are 2 transports and 1 minor factory, I keep 1 loaded carrier, 1 cruiser, 1 sub, 1 destroyer in sz#6 and 2 fighters on Tokyo to protect the new transports (maybe less if I put up a blocker) checkout the J1 strategies within this thread, they work quite well.
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I just buy 3 transports with Japan personally. Next round I can slap down an airbase or a naval base or replace fighters if I have to attack China with all my air or something.
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America does nothing to Germany and Italy anyway for the first 3 rounds.
Round 1 has nothing
Round 2 still has nothing
Round 3 moves outAny difference?
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USA gains 20 ipc woopy do that is the difference
However he loses more than 20 ipc of stuff round 1 to Japan. DD and Sub will only tilt 2 bship and a carrier at best (these days I only put 1 fighter 1 tactical on the fleet after combat and 2 fighter on borneo transport carrier, rest of air position for china).
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On a J1, USA gains +40 compared to a J3.
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USA treasury if J3DOW: T1=52 + T2=52 + T3=52…
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USA treasury if J1DOW: T1=52 + T2=72 + T3=72…
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Yeah but Japan gains so much more than +40.
If America does not go full pacific early. Japan can easily win. India is super vulnerable.
J1 buy 3 transports only
J2 1 ic FIC, 3 fighters, secure shan state or yunnan make sure allies cannot take away your landing pad.
J3 move in position, buy 3 fighters on FIC.
J4 all in.
During J2 and J3 you are securing all the islands. Big money. J4 You take India. Big money (you may not make some island money because you need everything to take India with minimal losses).
J5 Reclaim islands position fleet accordingly prepare to take Hawaii or New South Wales.
J6 Move out
J7 attack for the win.
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It is just that simple. -
If you want to look at money gained for going to war early
DD sub kill for free = 14 ipc
fighter 2 inf at the cost of 2 inf and 1 arty = 6 ipc
borneo, FIC, Phil = 8 ipc
Usually you get Kwangtung barring snake eyes = 3 ipc
~J2 you get 3 more islands = 11 ipc + NO. Sometimes you do malaya instead so 10 ipc
- 11 (islands previously taking)
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That is more than 40. Also being able to deny money from a country that is far more important in the early game (UK Pacific) money from borneo and kwangtung, makes it so much more vulnerable. UK Pacific can only get help from Russia or Africa, both of which desperately need their air. ANZAC will most likely land 3 fighters on Java to try and help out, but it cannot do this if America is not full pacific or ANZAC becomes a juicy target itself.
- 11 (islands previously taking)
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Oh god do I hate people that wait until J3 to go to war. Usually I war them with the allies on UK2 just to make all the NO money and get away with whatever attacks I can. I only lose combat phase for USA.
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I mean the only reason you would do a J3 DOW is if you are shuffling units off Japan into Siberia and buying bombers to bomb Russia and land in east poland so that Germany can easily G6 Russia.
You are basically giving up on Japan to put everything on winning in Europe.
So America just needs to dumptruck 20 units a round on spain to march over to France and Germany quick enough while UK and UKPacific hold Egypt. That is a great game.
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On a J1, USA gains +40 compared to a J3.
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USA treasury if J3DOW: T1=52 + T2=52 + T3=52…
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USA treasury if J1DOW: T1=52 + T2=72 + T3=72…
Like Cow says, consider the ipc swings.
-territories
Borneo and Kwang==14 ipc swing.
Phi=4 ipc swing
Fico=2 ipc swing-units killed on J1
units off phi=14 ipc swing
units on phi=10 ipc swing
bb kill=10-12 ipc swingIf you wait till J3 then UK Pacific gets an additional 4 ipc on UK1 and 7 ipc on UK2 (plus maybe the +5 NO if they declare UK2). Anzac gets +8 (and maybe the +5).
All that aside, there are strategic reasons for J1 that go beyond the economic rationales.
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“All that aside, there are strategic reasons for J1 that go beyond the economic rationales.”
^
The immediate pressure. Progress.
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Wait… I thought the plan was to attack the USA near Hawai J1?
I can see the merits of J1 if focussing south (DEI + India), but not both east (Hawai) AND south at the same time!Anyway, I am the last person on earth to not ‘look beyond economic rationales’.
I (try to) consider economic rationales, tempo, threat projection, ability to reinforce an area if a prolonged contest results (logistics, if you will), enemy counterattack possibilities, long term effects, the effects of my actions on the other, far away maps…etc.If this J1 plot is SO overpowered it is a simple automatic win, it needs a fix, ofc. Talk to Larry about it (edit: or Krieghund). I’m curious what he says. Not that I think him the A&A-god of strategies and tactics or something, but I’m always curious about rationales behind a lot of things in A&A ;-)…
And I am (as always) reluctant to believe people just on their blue eyes. I need to see it first. I can tell you one thing for sure: first A&A thing I will study on next, is this. Just to see. -
It’s not like I have any evidence that J1 is better than J2….for all I know J2 actually is better. All I can tell you is J1 is strong enough that I keep using it :) because hardly anyone seems to have an answer for it.
But yeah, I don’t attack Hawaii. While tempting, that throws Japan out of position for too small a gain.
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