HBG U.S. Naval Sculpts Preorder

@Razor…you misunderstood what I was talking about. The flame units don’t get anything in defense. If they attack a zone that contains a bunker(fotification, blockhouse) they inflict damage to the units inside. In the game I’ve created the blockhouses are used as fortifications that boost defense, but also can be used to absorb hits instead of the units. A flame unit attacks and makes a hit, the blockhouse cannot be used as a hit and a unit must be taken off the board. The game is being playtested and nit sure how this will work out. None the less the flame unitsin a tactical game could be used.

By the way, this is where variants are posted anyway. Of course if this unit was used in any WoC game it would have to be a house rule. This is why I have made a game where these units can be used.

Razor, I understand what you are saying about flamethrowers being an offensive weapon and therefore should have no defensive value.  Perhaps the Marine infantry w/flamethrower shouldn’t have a defense value and have to depend on regular infantry units to protect him (sort of like transports are defended by other warships), but the flame-tanks are still Sherman tanks.  They have machine guns and a 75mm artillery.  Shouldn’t they still have a defense value like regular tanks?

Tigerman,

Your R#49 is so full of logic that I can’t help agreeing with it.

I think that the in the HUGE game that we’re working on of The SOLOMONS CAMPAIGN,…that we really need to have every decision we come to based on it’s being SIMPLE, LOGICAL and FAST.

I feel that very strongly because the game board will be so LARGE and we’re going to have so many expanded CAPABILITIES of gameplay from all of the new units.  We really want this game to be as SIMPLE(read FUN) as possible while still taking benefit of any capability or rules that would expand the FUN factor.

To you, Tigerman I say, keep up the good work.
                                                                                  “Tall Paul”

Tigerman, I agree with Tall Paul, Lets keep this simple, affordable, and fun, but at the same time adding new units and capabilities.

WARRIOR888

Warrior,

My point was that I thought Tigerman’s methods concerning the use of Flame Tanks and Flame Marines against Blockhouses was:

1. The heigth of SIMPLICITY.  Basically as I understand it(and correct me if I’m wrong), The Flame Units simply “cancel out” the defensive effects that the Blockhouses added to the defending units.  Nothing to “figure out” here.  That makes it a normal battle against the defending units.

2. This makes LOGICAL sense as that’s what the Flame Units were used for(in real life) was to help assault fortified locations in conjunction with other units.

3. By “cancelling out” the Blockhouses added defensive effect, the battle remaining is a “normal” one and therefore the gameplay is FASTer.

I repeat,…WELL DONE, Tigerman!  I’m very proud of your work.

We only have about 99 more decisions like this one left to make now, but this is PROGRESS!
                                                                                  “Taul Paul”

It is simple. Also if you destroy the units and the fort is left it makes a counter attack alot tougher.

Okinawa will be my 3rd variant game. I’m not as battle tested as some (IL) but I like to think I have a few good ideas. Alot of my ideas have come from the house rule section and I would like to give credit to everyone that posts on this forum….wether I have used your idea or not it has helped me so much by being able to get to and read so much information.

Tigerman,

That’s a good point about the counter-attacks.

And “Iceberg” being your 3rd game I think gives you a great deal of knowledge, especially what works best through your experience.

Yeah, from everything I’ve read that IL has written I’m very impressed with his grasp of the game.  Anyone can have an idea, even a good one, but IL sees things from all levels and how they interconnect.  Very succinct thinker that IL.

And I couldn’t agree more about giving the proper person his just credit.  They deserve it for their work.

@Tall:

IL,
 
    I thought that I rememberred this line of thinking as yours.  I like these rules, especially in a G-40 type game if they could be succesfully implemented them.  They aren’t my original idea at all.

I would like to say to FMG,…and all of the A&A.ORG community a big “Thank You” already.

And don’t forget to e-mail me, Tigerman.  My e-mail is listed in my profile on the left.

“Tall Paul”

@knp7765:

Razor, I understand what you are saying about flamethrowers being an offensive weapon and therefore should have no defensive value.  Perhaps the Marine infantry w/flamethrower shouldn’t have a defense value and have to depend on regular infantry units to protect him (sort of like transports are defended by other warships), but the flame-tanks are still Sherman tanks.  They have machine guns and a 75mm artillery.  Shouldn’t they still have a defense value like regular tanks?

we really need to look at these units differently! In a global game a single infantry represents a division or maybe even a Corp. In my Okinawa game it represents a battalion size unit.

So if you have a flame thrower infantry it doesn’t mean yhat every man in the battalion had a flame thrower!! So it wouldn’t make sence to not give this unit a defensive value either!  Same for the flame tank. A battalion size unit that has some flamethrowers to burn out enemy positions.

This could be the same For other units also,if we look at other new units comming out, like a tank destroyer.

First, Thanks for your response.

1st way to use “oil rules”:

I was thinking along the lines of ships having to be “refueled” every “X” number of turns.  If they aren’t refueled, they are “idled”.  This adds a necessary Naval “task” to be done.  To your enemy, they(the Oilers) would be a “Target” worthy of exploitation.  As important as Naval Support would be in a LARGE Solomons game I thought this might lead to some Naval battles.  What do you think?Huh?

The best game ever made which showcases the various Pacific battles is a game called Flattop by Avalon Hill.

I have not played in a while but i don’t remember any oil rules. The campaigns of those days didn’t really tax the range of the ships employed to the degree where they would require keeping track of fuel reserves. However, air forces do have limited flight time and you need to sort out which planes have torpedoes, bombs , or are being used for Combat Air Patrol so you can model the issues faced at Midway. naval movement should be plotted where you have to search the sea for the enemy fleet. Carriers would be carrying perhaps up to 4-6 planes and most ships will take 2-3 hits, or have a hull rating where you roll a D6 and place damage marker under the unit.

Victory in the Pacific uses this system . The Yamato for example is a 6-9-5 counter, it gets 6 dice counting 6 as hits and 5 is disabled. when you get a hit you roll again and say you got 4, which means if you had the Yamato and it was hit you got 5 points left before it is sunk.

Japanese Torpedo planes with no defending enemy cap could get a +1 of combat rolls

Night surface action could be +1 for japan

many ideas are possible. You first need a concept down

2nd way to use “oil rules”

The other way I read about oil being used was that you had to have enough “Oil Points” to SUPPORT the military that you’re able to buy, or some of it would be “idled”.
What do you think?Huh?

This is a better idea, where you have oil chits used to spend on what types of ships you can bring to battle allowing for something like Larry’s Guadalcanal game. IN fact use that game as a template for your own game so you get more people accepting this new game. Keep the basic system and just improve it with something new.

I.L.,

As far as our “concept” it is:

A battle-specific(the entire Solomons Campaign) in SCOPE,…to be played on a map expanded to G-40 in SIZE, to use the expanded pool of UNITS(OOB, new, and proposed) and using a lot of new or expanded CAPABILITIES that are made possible with the new units.

We are considering a series of these expanded battles with a large Naval enfluence.
“Tigerman” is our “Map Master”.

Some of the expanded capabilities would be:
Recon(PBY), seamine warfare, amphibious raids(w/Marine Raiders), large amphibious invasions, naval surface combat, naval air combat, base defense or patrol by PT boats, convoy escort, paratroop drops(probably not in this Solomons game), etc.

With this game having such an expanded map of only the Solomons+ area would make it more tactical in nature.

Considering the 1st poss. use of oil,…My primary intent for making the naval units having to refuel every X turns was to create a need for refueling TFs.  This obviously leads to their necesity of being ESCORTED and protected(NAVY surface and AIR FORCE).  These refueling TFs would obviously be a very juicy target for your enemy to attack.  with these refuelling TFs, Supply Convoy TFs, and many others it should lead to some interesting Naval battles, some of a Titanic size(just like in reality).

I.L.,  I know you said these oil refueling rules “weren’t fun” when they were used in the past.

But what would your opinion be (of the oil refueling rules) in the context of this much expanded map of small islands, many sea zones, many support TFs, and two powerful opponents in a head-to-head slugfest of a battle???  I respect your knowledge and experience in these matters a great deal.

Thanks for your time.

“Tall Paul”

Well,

With 36 votes now having been cast let’s take a look at what units seem to be the current favorites.

Although I’ve segregated the units by vote totals, I HAVE NO IDEA what “Coach’s” cut-off would be(or even if he has one) for inclusion in his 1st Set.  Nor do I imply any “cut-off”.  I have heard him say several times that it looks like there may be enough interest to make a 2nd Set, too though.

–------------------------------

The Heavy Hitters(pun intended) with over 20 votes.

23 votes……“Montana” BB    This brute demands attention!
21    "  …Heavy Cruiser    Another heavy hitter.
20    "  …“Midway” CV(H)    Those Korean War fans are still around(grin)

Some Very Popular units with between 14-19 votes.

18 votes……“Independance” CVL, CL Light Cruiser, PBY Seaplane
17    "  …AO Oiler, DE Destroyer Escort
16    "  …“Essex” CV, South Dakota BB
15    "  …“North Carolina” BB
14    "  …LST Landing Ship Tank, “Tennessee” BB

ALL OF THE ABOVE seem to be very popular choices, also.

And the rest of the (NECESSARY) units.

13 votes……B-29 SuperFortress, “Alaska” BC   
11    "  …PT Boat
10    "  …“Atlanta” CLAA Light Cruiser
9    "    …LCM Landing Craft Mechanised, “Colorado” BB
8    "    …DMS Minesweeper, LCVP Landing Craft Vehicle/Personel “Higgins” Boat
7    "    …AV Seaplane Tender
4    "    …F-9 “Cougar” Jet

Personally,…I’m looking forward to being able to buy and use ALL of the above listed units.  As I’m primarily a WW2 fan I’m not a fan of the “Midway” class CVs or the
F-9 "Cougar Jet.  But you know what,…IF they ever got produced,…I certainly would BUY them!  Especially at the low prices these plastic units will be compared to the white-metal or epoxy castings of the other miniature companies.

Also, I’d like to remind people that if they haven’t already done so,…to consider
PRE-PAYING for these units and making their production even more possible for ALL of us.  I hope that we’re all using these units in our own expanded games in the near future.

“Tall Paul”

If Coach gets this set up and running then you know he will have to so a Japanese naval set also….let’s keep the pre orders comming!!!

Tigerman,

I’m ready RIGHT NOW to pre-order 10 sets of the Japanese Naval Set also.  
I just didn’t want to say anything concerning things that might be too far in the future.

But like I said,…If the “Coach” makes them, I’ll pre-order 10 each of the following:

US Set
US NAVAL Set #1(10 already ordered)
US NAVAL Set #2
JAPANESE Set
both of the JAPANESE NAVAL Set(s)
Generic Set

Also, I hope that the “Coach” would really consider producing a “GENERIC Set” that would include Air Bases, Naval Bases, Crate of Supplies, Barrel of Fuel, Major ICs(?), Minor ICs(?), Fortifications like Sub Pens, Coastal Guns, Blockhouses, Sandbaged Bunkers, and Aircraft Revetments(?) and/or whatever the “Coach” feels would be necessary.  This “generic” set only needs to be produced in one “generic” color.  If the players want to paint/decal them for specific countries they can.  Please “Coach”, save us from the cardboard stuff.

Some of these units/pieces might be available elsewhere without the expense of having to mold them(like the ICs from the Risk game).

After seeing your post I just couldn’t keep from spouting-off myself.

Like I Say,……What Do YA’LL Think

“Tall Paul”

Hey Tall Paul, I know that there are plans for a 2nd US Naval set (of course, that’s if the first set gets enough attention).  Do you think there will be TWO Japanese Naval sets too?  I’m just not so sure there will be quite as big a demand for so many different Japanese Naval sculpts as for all the different US Naval Sculpts.  Then again, I know that all the sculpts suggested for the US Naval sets aren’t all ships.  In fact, a few of them aren’t even WW2 (Cougar Jet fighter, Midway heavy carrier).  Perhaps if the Japanese sets also include special planes and such, maybe people will want 2 sets.

You know what would be cool for the Japanese set?  A sculpt of the Ise or Hyuga.  Those were battleship/aircraft carrier hybrids.  After the disaster at Midway, the Japanese were desperate to fill in their carrier force and they took these two battleships, removed the rear guns and installed small flight decks.  I’m not sure how successful they were or how much action they saw after the conversions, but they are neat looking ships.

KNP,

To answer your question,…I don’t KNOW or assume anything.  I don’t take for granted that the 1st US Naval Set will be produced, although with all the interest that has been shown, along with the “Coach’s” track record on producing A&A units, and the number of pre-orders I’d guess it PROBABLY will be.

As far as the Japanese Naval Set(s) I would suggest you look at it this way.  Rather than specific ships think about specific ship TYPES.  PT, SS, DMS, DE, DD, CL, CA, “old” BB, “newer” BB, CVL, CV, Landing Craft, Etc., Etc.  These ship types will allow us to expand our gaming capabilities, especially in some new purpose-designed games.

Certain Japanese ships and/or types should be popular enough on their own for production.  Like the Yamato super BBs(Yamato, Musashi), Shinano super CV, all of the varied CVs(Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu, Shokaku, Zuikaku), Mogami class Cruisers, Etc., Etc.

Also, the “Coach” is working on a Pearl Harbor game and Tigerman and I are working on Expanded A&A-The Naval Series    Coral Sea and The Solomons Campaign.  We are planning to produce a SERIES of “Naval-Oriented” A&A games that along with the “Coach’s” Pearl Harbor game would provide an excellent arena for the expanded Naval, Air, and Land unit types proposed and already in “the pipeline” from HBG and FMG.  Hopefully having both the units and the games available would encourage interest.  As far as I can tell,…the A&A “fans” that I’ve interacted with here on A&A.ORG are as die-hard and completely interested in A&A as I am, or even more so.

KNP,…I would suggest that you voice your interest in Japanese Naval Set(s) to the “Coach”, including specific ships you like as HE is the one that can MAKE IT HAPPEN for all of us.

Of course, the production of the US Naval Set(s) depends on enough interest being shown and pre-orders.  If these set(s) are produced it would logically lead to the Japanese Naval Set(s) being produced.

All of these units/sets are expensive to make and demand a significant investment of money.  The “Coach” is not only a “fan”,…but a businessman who needs to make a return on these investments in order to keep making additional units/sets for our enjoyment(or from going broke).

Like I Say,…What Do YA’LL Think???
                                                                                   “Tall Paul”

Ah ha! Tall Paul is right. We need to support whatever piece project comes out. My idea for a real global game is to have a rule set for all the types of unnits that come out, or better yet in a global game you and the other guys playing pick which units will be used in a game. Tank destroyer? Mech Artillery? Both? I just want more options than 1 carrier or 1 battleship if i’m U.S. or Japan. I want more 3 types of tanks if I’m Germany.
  Even if you don’t want or need the units buy as many as you can affoed then resale them on ebay! LOL……I’m just excited about all the new ideas comming forth.
  On another note, I got my olive marine in from HBG and I took the flame tanks and cut the extra gun off!!!  They look awesome!! The color is so close to the OOB color I wopuld just leave it the same for the U.S.set!

What do you guys think?

Hey Tigerman77,
Those Shermans look really cool.  I was thinking about clipping off the flame barrel myself and making them into regular Shermans, perhaps even replacing my OOB Shermans with them.  Thanks for the pic.

“Coach”,

I put a GREAT reference web-site link on my “Expanded A&A-Naval Series” thread for you.  It should help you with any destroyer types you’re thinking about producing.  The APD Fast Attack Transports, Minelayers, Minesweepers, Etc.

I have no doubt that if you’d read and learn about the Green Dragon APDs that you’d also become a fan of them and understand why they could be USEFUL to ALL of us in our games.  We need something to tote our Marine Raiders (made from your Marines) around with.  Check it out and let me know what you think.

“Tall Paul”