Evolution of Axis & Allies pieces – Take 2

@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Cernel Cases 1 and 2 are legal in versions up to and including Revised OOB, but not legal in Revised LHTR or later. Cases 3 through 5 are not legal in any version.

Even though you stated
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Cernel Forget what I said here to the contrary, and go with the prior rulings. I have edited my above answers in accordance with this.

I’ve seen that you have not yet edited this post.

Does this mean that, in this case, you stand by this latest clarification of yours (which should be taken as prevalent)?

No. I did not edit the post because I amended this answer in a later post in this thread (which was made before I edited the posts).

So, summarizing, it seems that, to my first two cases at the first post of this topic, specifically
@Cernel said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

A transport has one or two units already on board at the start of the turn, does not load any more units, moves into a hostile sea zone during the same turn and does not offload any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and offloads any number of its cargo into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.

A transport has one or two units already on board at the start of the turn, starts the turn inside a hostile sea zone and neither moves nor loads any units nor offloads any units during Combat Move, partakes to a successful sea battle without being removed and offloads any number of its cargo into an own or allied territory during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.

we have two possible official answers (both from you).

In this topic, you said that
@Krieghund said in Some cases of transport-related rules across "Axis & Allies" games from Classic to the most recent ones:

@Cernel Cases 1 and 2 are legal in versions up to and including Revised OOB, but not legal in Revised LHTR or later.

whereas, based on what you said previously and I quoted at this post, I understand that your answer based on those answers would be something like

Cases 1 and 2 are legal in Revised OOB and the original Europe and Pacific, but not legal in the Classic games nor in Revised LHTR or later.

Which one is the correct ruling?

The second one, as I stated in my amended post above.

If you will, please don’t just tell me to go with whatever you said previously: if you are going with the previous rulings, I’d like to know on what they are based.

Would it be because of the concept that cargo inside a transport which took part in a battle is considered having taken part in the battle too (and therefore cannot do anything during the subsequent Noncombat Move phase) coupled with the fact that every Classic rules-book is missing a special rule like the one in Revised OOB stating that

Transports that have been in combat may either load or offload (not both) during this phase, but not if they have retreated from combat this turn.

If this is not the reason, what is the reason?

Yes, that’s the reason.

I understand that, as an official answerer, you can just limit yourself to say what’s what, but I would like to know the reasons behind the rulings at least for those which (apparently) changed over time or got answers at variance with each other if that is not too much to ask.

I think this was all covered adequately in the “Offloading in Both Combat and Noncombat Movement” thread that you linked. There’s no reason to go over it again.

As a side note, I apologize for not consulting that thread before I answered here initially. I was going from memory, which is always a bad thing to do when dealing with Revised OOB, for reasons discussed in that thread.

Trying to make a summary of a number of my topics, I believe that we can divide the matter into three main cases, namely “1”, “2” and “3”, the latter being actually “1+2”.

A transport with 2 units already on board at start turn offloads 1 unit during Combat Move (does not take part in any battles) and offloads the other unit during Noncombat Move (both units being offloaded into the same territory, which was enemy owned during Combat Move and is friendly during Noncombat Move).

A transport with 1 or 2 units already on board at start turn takes part in a battle (and does not offload any units during Conduct Combat) and offloads all or part of the units during Noncombat move (into a friendly territory).

A transport with 2 units already on board at start tun takes part in a battle and offloads 1 unit during Conduct Combat and offloads the other unit during Noncombat Move (both units being offloaded into the same territory, which was enemy owned during Conduct Combat and is friendly during Noncombat Move).

First of all, have we conclusively clarified that (for every rules-set) whether or not a transport moved before amphibiously offloading or taking part in a battle on the same turn is absolutely irrelevant for whatever it can do during Noncombat Move? Meaning that it would be completely pointless to split the aforementioned three cases into two cases each (for a total of six cases), stating whether the transport moved or not before offloading in Combat Move or taking part in combat. Correct?

Yes.

Secondarily, are we splitting all actual (WW2 and strategic) Axis & Allies games from Classic 1st Edition to the most recent ones into two main groups each of which has either all the above three cases (“1”, “2” and “1+2”) legal or illegal, or are there any such games which have only some of the above three cases legal and the rest illegal?

This grouping is correct.

Either way, I’d like to have the full list of them (Again, it does not need to be an actual list: something like “this full sequence of actions is illegal in every game since Revised LHTR but was legal in Revised OOB and every game beforehand” would be just as good.).

To be clear, I see two cases here.

If I take what you said at the post to which I’m replying now as prevailing over whatever you said in the past and I quoted at this post, what I understand is that,

for the Classic games, 1 and 1+2 are illegal but 2 is legal. for Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all legal. for Revised LHTR and later games, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all illegal.

If I take what you said in the past and I quoted at this post as prevailing over whatever you said at the post to which I’m replying now, what I understand is that,

for the Classic games, Revised LHTR and later games, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all illegal. for Europe, Pacific and Revised OOB, 1, 2 and 1+2 are all legal.

(However, I’m quite unsure about (the original) Europe and Pacific.)

So take your time and let me/us know if you will. I understand that it’s a lot of rules-sets to be sure. Thank you.

For Classic and Revised LHTR and later, all are illegal.
For Europe, Pacific, and LHTR OOB, all are legal.

Considering that it is good to use as few chips or bucks as possible to fill each player’s amount, more high-value coins and fewer low-value coins should be used.
Looking at the needs for the Anniversary edition we cover all the others except the Global edition which has higher requirements and taking into account that the Anniversary, Europe, Pacific and Global editions also require extra amounts from the National Objectives Income.
It should also be taken into account that it is impossible to achieve all National Objectives at the same time because on the one hand some overlap between rival powers and also it is impossible for both sides or for all powers to excel at the same time. However, here the calculation takes into account the theoretically maximum amount that can exist.
Below I also list the quantities required in editions as well, including the revenues from the National Objectives, where they exist:
Starting IPC’s for Axis & Allies games:
1941: 55
Pacific 1940: 81 (157)
Spring 1942: 166
Anniversary: 171 (246)
Europe 1940: 149 (249)
Global 1940: 241 (373)
A&A IPC Calculation.pdf
A&A IPC Calculation photo.png
For the Anniversary edition:
IPC Chips with a value of 1:
It is possible that 6 quads with a value of 1 are needed at the same time. For example if all powers have income ending in 4 or 9 (eg 4, 14, 9, 19 etc). This means that 24 chips with a value of 1 may be needed.
IPC Chips with a value of 5:
Also if all powers have income ending in 5 to 9 at the same time (eg 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 15, 16 etc) they may need 6 tokens with a value of 5 at the same time. This does not change if there are chips with a value of 25 in the set because then, they complete the five after 25 to make a ten up to 30 for the amounts that follow (e.g. 31, 32, 33, 34, 41, 42 etc.).
IPC Chips with a value of 10:
If there are no chips of 25 then 20 chips with a value of 10 may be needed at the same time since the maximum total income reaches 246 IPC.
Having chips worth 25 greatly reduces the requirement for chips worth 10 used to complete tens between 10 and 25 or between 25 and 50 (eg 35, 45 etc). Therefore, the highest requirement for chips with a value of 10 occurs if all powers need two chips with a value of 10 at the same time, so 6 pairs, i.e. 12 chips with a value of 10.
So the perfect sets for the Anniversary Edition are:

Simple required set: 24x1 + 6x5 + 20x10 = 256 IPC with 50 chips Simple configured set: 25x1 + 5x5 + 20x10 = 250 IPC with 50 chips Full required set: 24x1 + 6x5 + 12x10 + 3x25 = 249 IPC with 45 chips Full configured set: 25x1 + 10x5 + 10x10 + 3x25 = 250 IPC with 48 chips

Likewise for the Global version:
IPC Chips with a value of 1:
If all powers have income ending in 4 or 9 (e.g. 4, 9, 14, 19 etc), 10 quads with a value of 1 may be needed at the same time, meaning 40 tokens with a value of 1.
IPC Chips with a value of 5:
Also, 10 chips with a value of 5 may be needed at the same time if the powers’ incomes end in 5 to 9 (eg 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 15, 16 etc). This does not change if there are chips with a value of 25 in the set because then, they complete the five after 25 to make a ten up to 30 for the amounts that follow (e.g. 31, 32, 33, 34, 41, 42 etc.).
IPC Chips with a value of 10:
If there are no chips of 25 then 29 chips with a value of 10 may be needed at the same time since the maximum total income reaches 373 IPC.
If there are chips with a value of 25 it greatly reduces the requirement for chips with a value of 10 which are used to complete tens between 10 and 25 or between 25 and 50 etc. Therefore, the highest requirement for chips with a value of 10 occurs if all powers need two chips with a value of 10 at the same time, so 10 pairs, i.e. 20 chips with a value of 10.
Therefore the perfect sets for the Global version are:

Simple required set: 40x1 + 10x5 + 29x10 = 380 IPC with 79 chips Simple configured set: 40x1 + 10x5 + 30x10 = 390 IPC with 80 chips Full required set: 40x1 + 10x5 + 20x10 + 4x25 = 390 IPC with 74 chips Full configured set: 40x1 + 10x5 + 20x10 + 5x25 = 415 IPC with 75 chips

They are bean counters. No doubt about it. They want exact results with no luck. All life is luck and games are simulations of life.

I don’t vilify anything. Its accurate reporting of facts and theirs nothing glamorous of low luck. To me its only value is for play testing of games, not actual games.

Bean counters are also mostly Rule Lawyers. They argue rules all day if possible.

The dice rules for both “Low Luck” and “No Luck” (that means “No Dice”) ways to play, in pdf file:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x4j29q8euk5u8hv/A%26A Dice options.pdf?dl=0
(The texts are not entirely mine, but I do not remember the sources. However, it is from the time when we played on “Game Table Online”)

“Low Luck” Rules for Axis & Allies:
The common way to play with Low Luck is like this…
For every combat round you add the values of the attacking and defending units.
For instance if you are attacking with 4 inf and 1 fighter and the defender has 2 inf, then the attacker has 7 attack points while the defender has 4.
Every 6 points means that you’ll get a hit, and you roll a dice for the leftovers.
On this case the attacker would have 1 automatic hit, while rolling a die and hitting with a 1, while the defender would roll a die to hit on a 4 or less.
Imagine both the attacker and defender had 1 hit each. On the next combat round the attacker doesn’t have to roll (it has 6) while the defender rolls for 2 or less. And it goes on until one or both sides are destroyed or the attacker retreats.
The same applies for ships doing land bombardment during amphibious assaults.
Example: For two Battleships you have 8 firepower points in bombardment, so you get one automatic hit and you roll the dice for 2 or less to get a second bombardment hit.
For the Antiaircraft guns if the attacking airplanes are six you get one automatic AA hit. If they are less than six you roll the dice and if you get the number of planes or less you get one AA hit.
Example: For nine attacking airplanes you get one automatic AA hit (for the first 6 planes) and you roll the dice for 3 or less to get a second AA hit (for the remaining 3 planes).
Alternative rules (for AA guns):
With AA shots you can either roll individually for each plane, or you can roll for each type of plane.
Or just add up all the attacking planes and divide that number by 6. 11 Fighters, 11 Tactical Bombers and 2 Strategic Bombers = 24 Planes, 4 planes are lost.
The thing with that approach is that it allows for very effective strategic bombing campaigns. You send 6 bombers against an IC on a territory worth 8 IPC or more (on Global 40 against a Major IC): 1 bomber gets shot automatically by the AA, resulting in a loss of 12 IPCs but the other 5 bombers deal an average of 3.5 damage to the targeted IC. You keep buying one bomber to replace the lost one and the other guy has to either pay a lot to build units or abandon the IC.
…
…

“No Luck” (that means “No Dice”) Rules for Axis & Allies:
The total firepower points of the fighting units divided by 6 and rounded gives the number of hits. That means if the firepower points are 3, 4, 5 or 6 you get a hit and if they are 1 or 2 you don’t get hit. For example:
Three attacking tanks (firepower 9) causing two hits to the defender (one for the first 6 points and one for the remaining 3 points of the total firepower).
If the opposing fighting units have low firepower (less than 3 points) and no one can do a hit to each other, you must keep the leftovers between battle rounds until there is at least a 3 firepower hit. For example:
Two attacking infantries (firepower 2) eliminate one defending infantry (firepower 2) in two battle rounds.
Antiaircraft guns (AA):
The total number of attacking airplanes divided by 6 and rounded gives the number of AA hits. That means if the number of airplanes is 3, 4, 5 or 6 you get an AA hit and if it is 1 or 2 you don’t get hit. For example:
If the attacking airplanes are nine the AA gun causes 2 hits (one for the first 6 planes and one for the remaining 3 planes).
Alternative rules:
Whenever you have a battle, you add up each of the different types of attacks, just like low luck. The difference is, you keep the leftovers between battles.
No hits are inflicted until a total of 6 is reached.
Example: I attack with 10 infantry against 3 tanks.
Round 1: I have total attack value of 10 (10 infantry attacking at 1). Total defense value is 9 (3 tanks defending at 3). So I get 1 hit, and the defender gets 1 hit. However, the remainder is NOT rolled, but saved for the next round.
Round 2: I now have 9 infantry attacking 2 tanks. My total attack is 9; the total defense is 6. HOWEVER, we add the leftovers from the last round, so my total attack becomes 9 + 4, while the total defense becomes 6 + 3. That makes for 13 and 9 respectively. I get 2 hits, the defender still gets 1 hit. Now I have 8 infantry, the defender has nothing.
Obviously antiaircraft guns become totally useless because you can attack with up to 5 planes, and nothing will ever get shot down (the AA gun total never reaches 6 or more since it only fires once).So the solution is to keep a running total for AA guns not just between combats, but for the WHOLE GAME, and knock off a fighter (or a bomber) whenever the total hits 3.Same thing for battleships.

From the time we played online at the legendary “Game Table Online (GTO)”, I have kept some file documents of the bids we made at the beginning of the matches. These are actually Custom Setups. Here is the pdf files: https://www.dropbox.com/s/80ejfkvzh7f57fv/A%26A Custom setups.pdf?dl=0

Axis & Allies Custom Setup:
WHAT: As an alternative to the traditional beginning set-up for the game, bidding allows you an optional supplement to a country’s normal starting position. This supplement can be units and/or IPC’s. Bidding is done before play begins. In multi-player games you are also bidding to select a side with the winning bidder generally selecting his partner from those remaining [see recommendations below].

REVISED AXIS & ALLIES: You are bidding to play the AXIS side. Players may start with any bid from the list that follows. Subsequent bids can be made by any other player for any amount that is of less advantage to the axis [further below on the list] than the the current bid. Bidding ends when no one is willing to take a bid of less advantage than the current bid. That winning bidder is an Axis player. If you make an Allied bid, you are still bidding to be Axis, but you are giving those extra units or IPCs to your opponents.

AXIS & ALLIES 1942: You are bidding to be the ALLIED side. Players may start with any bid from the list that follows. Subsequent bids can be made by any other player for any amount that is of less advantage to the allies [further above on the list] than the the current bid. Bidding ends when no one is willing to take a bid of less advantage than the current bid. That winning bidder is an Allied player. If you make an Axis bid, you are still bidding to be Allies, but you are giving those extra units or IPCs to your opponents.

Here is a list of the custom setups you can select in the table:

04b9d07d-3fd0-49d4-8049-97db77192b93-image.png

REVISED EXAMPLE: One player starts the bidding with the number of extra IPCs worth of units he will accept to play the Axis. Then if another players thinks he can do better with less, he’ll bid lower. The players continue alternating bids until no one wishes to go lower. Unless agreed otherwise a Japanese bid is lower than a German bid for the same amount.

For example in REVISED Axis & Allied bidding if Erwin and Winston are playing bidding might go like:

Erwin: “I’ll play Germany +9”. That means he’s willing to take the Axis countries with 9 extra IPCs worth of gear to start the game with.
Winston then says: “I’ll play Japan +9.”
Erwin then counters with: “Germany +8.”
Winston says, “fine… you play Axis.”

So now Erwin gets to start with 8 extra IPCs worth of troops for Germany. Per the list this would mean: an extra tank and infantry in Africa at the beginning of the game.

Note in Axis & Allies 1942 bidding procedes in the opposite direction.

RECOMMENDATION: If players are NOT at similar experience levels - DON’T let bidding decide teams. Especially in 2 vs 2 team games it is recommended that you select partners FIRST and THEN bid. This will avoid the situation where 2 very experienced players are paired against 2 less experienced players and make for more competitive game play.Custom setup in Axis & Allies Revised & Spring 1942 Custom setup in Axis & Allies Revised & Spring 1942

One last reply for now.

First, let me hit you up with some pictures of how colors of units for different countries varied in the early days of Hasbro/WotC/AH A&A.

Tanks of the United Kingdom, from A&A Europe/Pacific to A&A Anniversary. (Source: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/424344/) - See the source link for a listing of what piece is from which game.
Axis and Allies - Tanks of the United Kingdom, from A and A Europe/Pacific to A and A Anniversary

And finally, a couple shots of the rarest (non-mistake) pieces in A&A - RN County Class cruisers in Russian Red. These were only done for the first print run of A&A Anniversary. The next time Soviet cruisers were seen in an A&A game (A&A 1942, 1st Edition), they were replaced with Kirov-class cruiser.

First, a comparison shot of all of the cruisers from A&A Anniversary, 1st print. (Source: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/362555/)
All of the cruisers from A and A Anniversary

Next, a clearer picture of those rare Soviet County classes, aligned with the rest of the Soviet Navy in A&A Anniversary. (Source: https://boardgamegeek.com/image/399605/)
The Soviet Navy in A and A Anniversary

I hope that helps somebody.

-Midnight_Reaper

@jesse144 I don’t know about Football or whomever “John Boyd” is. Clausewitz is the real genius and to read his book is to profit from real military wisdom. You can believe that.

@private-panic

I like Napoleon in Europe. But please mind is is a big game. In all the different senses of the word.
Then again: game is nice, pieces and map are beautiful.
So: oui!