Tanks too expensive

I still buy artillery occasionally mostly with the Soviets to support my huge stacks of infantry when they attack.  I also find they are useful when making an amphibious attack as well as other uses when attacking.  I think they are still a very useful unit.

OK, i have an issue with this, Germany just buys tanks thing and glitches the game. Especially with IL. Although I was glancing through all the posts and it may be very old. I have not played the newest AA42, but have played revised and normal AA for 18 years or so. With the introduction of artillery in the revised, as far as pure fire power went, men and artillery are by far superior to tanks.

Understand, it is just the math. Nothing else. With the spaces being so close, if Germany just bought tanks, it would be a disadvantage. Russian buying all men and artillery versus Germany buying all tanks, Germany is at a disadvantage.

Again, I have not played the newer 1942 version, but if the set up allowed Germany to win to easily with buying all tanks at 5IPC, then the problem is not with tanks at 5, but with the 1942 setup. Tanks at 5IPC are at a disadvantage in fire power. Although the 2 movement provides some advantage, the lack of fire power is significantly lower. 5 artillery and 5 men buy far massacre 7 tanks. Not just by a little, but by a lot. If you play the odds in different ways, they come out the same. Every time a tank is lost at a attacking or defending power of 3, they get even more disadvantaged compared with an artillery or man loss of 2. The battles starts out with almost even fire power, tanks 21 versus arty’s and men at 20. I have done the probability tests over and over again using different methods. And I don’t mean rolling the dice over and over again.

IL was taking about AAE, where the spaces are far. In global 40, Russia is 30+ territories. Tanks do have an advantage in movement

Now I agree with the idea that tanks at 5 would make armored inf. pointless. However, maybe mech infantry should defend at 3, or maybe attack at 2.

Where I think tanks might make sense in the global game is this. The areas are so spread out, that being able to move an attacking power of 3 two spaces may make a huge difference requiring the buidling of some tanks. Movability may be that much more important. And may be more historically accurate in terms of cost structures for tanks to be that much more expensive. I do not know. Hopefully the manuever aspect of the global game, since it is so spread out, is so important, planes, even at the cost of 10 many make sense. As before, buying aircraft for most of the powers was ridiculous and inefficient. I have played AA40. I buy very few tanks for Britain. But that is only when they go on the offensive whick means the Japan player made some big mistakes. Otherwise, with Japan I do not buy them. The war is decided in the Pacific with the Dutch Indies and the solomon island areas. Once I take those and get the bonuses, the game is decided and we don’t drag it out once I begin invading Australia and pushing against the Chinese.

Caveat: we just started playing with China going first plus getting 1 extra infantry per territory in exchange for Japan getting a double impulse attack on the islands only. I have played with these new rules as the allies only. It seems to make for a much more balanced game, (China was way to weak) and inserts some historical accuracy. I will play Japan with this alternative our next game. I can see how I might buy tanks under this scenario. However, my opponent never bought 1 tank. Although I did win, I am not sure him buying tanks would have made a difference. If I cannot win with Japan when I paly, we will slightly tweak the rules, but probably not by mich. We are considering limiting placement of artillery when purchases at the burma road entrance to China. Only placing infantry on territories Chaina had at the beginning of the turn and placing the US navy in Hawaii except the carrier which cannot move until th eUS is at War.

The last point by Calvin just gave me a “huh” moment. All these post make absolutely no sense. The global or AAE game is not out yet. What the $#%^ is everyone talking about.

Some please explain.

@calvinhobbesliker:

IL was taking about AAE, where the spaces are far. In global 40, Russia is 30+ territories. Tanks do have an advantage in movement

So do Mech.

He was talking about AAE (Axis and Allies Europe) the first edition.  And no, Europe 1940 (and the combination with Pacific 1940 for a global game) is not out yet, but we do have the map and setup and a good portion of the rules from DJensen’s previews from his early release copy.@eddiem4145:

The last point by Calvin just gave me a “huh” moment. All these post make absolutely no sense. The global or AAE game is not out yet. What the $#%^ is everyone talking about.

Some please explain.

I am still confused. This is the for the global 1940 game that is not out yet. Yet all the posts are about how to play a game not even out yet. They even appear to be about games that have been played. So I am assuming people are posting about AAE, the old version. But tanks were still 5IPC. I could be wrong. Also I didn’t know you could put AAE AAP the old versions together.

If not, I seems people are talking about the Anniversary addition. Not sure why that is on this post.

@eddiem4145:

I am still confused. This is the for the global 1940 game that is not out yet. Yet all the posts are about how to play a game not even out yet. They even appear to be about games that have been played. So I am assuming people are posting about AAE, the old version. But tanks were still 5IPC. I could be wrong. Also I didn’t know you could put AAE AAP the old versions together.

If not, I seems people are talking about the Anniversary addition. Not sure why that is on this post.

Well we have the map and setup pretty much:

http://www.axisandallies.org/node/416
http://www.axisandallies.org/node/433
http://www.axisandallies.org/node/438
http://www.axisandallies.org/node/439

The concern here is that the vital Russian tts are so far away from German production centres that Germany is forced to buy 2 space movement units because it simply takes too long for infantry & artillery produced in Germany to reach the front lines.

If train movement rules were used (which is how all these units actually travelled) then Germany would have no problem buying a reasonable balance of units.  It is the silly movement allowance that makes Germany (and Japan if it pursues an Asian mainland strategy) so dependent on tanks and mech, while Russian can still buy the cheaper units and sit tight until the western Allies turn up in numbers.  This is regardless of combat odds; the Axis problem is in getting the units where they need to be in sufficient time to make their numbers count before the Allies are fully mobilised.

The Germans would be glad of units that have no combat value whatever but can move 3 spaces a time so they can be used up as casualties in order to protect the armoured spearhead.

@eddiem4145:

I am still confused. This is the for the global 1940 game that is not out yet. Yet all the posts are about how to play a game not even out yet. They even appear to be about games that have been played. So I am assuming people are posting about AAE, the old version. But tanks were still 5IPC. I could be wrong. Also I didn’t know you could put AAE AAP the old versions together.

If not, I seems people are talking about the Anniversary addition. Not sure why that is on this post.

There are separate forums for the old Europe and Pacific games.  Those original games could NOT be combined.  This IS the forum for the new global-scale game combining the new Europe 1940 and Pacific 1940 games.  You are right about this forum being for that, but apparently you are missing something somehow in what you’re reading because I explained it in my previous post.

Go to the main axisandallies.org page and you’ll see there are 4 preview articles posted on the website because the website founder here, David Jensen, received a copy of the NEW Europe 1940 game from WOTC early in order for him to review it and get people excited about the game before it comes out next week.  Thus we have this board on this forum where those of us who are excited are discussing what we know about the game from the preview material and other hints Larry Harris has been dropping about the new (unreleased) game.  Ok, so far?  There are also some people playing the game with the pictures of the map that we have been given and the rules that DJensen has previewed for us, and there are some people who got to play the physical game at a convention that Larry took the new game to in order to advertise, as they are trying to do with the previews.

The reason IL was talking about the original Europe game WAS because the tanks cost 5 IPC in that game.  They will now cost 6 IPCs in the NEW Europe 1940 game just like they cost 6 IPCs in the already released Pacific 1940 game.  Since this thread is about the new higher cost of tanks, he was comparing the two games and how things will be different between them with tanks costing 6 IPCs now.

Yes, it is a little confusing because this separate Global 1940 board was just created (before there was only the Europe 1940 board), so almost all the topics in this Global 1940 board and the Europe 1940 board have some overlap since everything was combined until about a week ago.  But we are not discussing Anniversary Edition except as it relates to the new game.  There is a separate board for that version as well.

I love that tanks cost six. When me and my friends player 1942 Germany would crush Russia with tanks. But tanks still have a place in the game. I buy them occasionally as a back up unit kinda like planes.

When me and my friends player 1942 Germany would crush Russia with tanks

Exactly.

@Flashman:

The concern here is that the vital Russian tts are so far away from German production centres that Germany is forced to buy 2 space movement units because it simply takes too long for infantry & artillery produced in Germany to reach the front lines.

If train movement rules were used (which is how all these units actually travelled) then Germany would have no problem buying a reasonable balance of units.  It is the silly movement allowance that makes Germany (and Japan if it pursues an Asian mainland strategy) so dependent on tanks and mech, while Russian can still buy the cheaper units and sit tight until the western Allies turn up in numbers.  This is regardless of combat odds; the Axis problem is in getting the units where they need to be in sufficient time to make their numbers count before the Allies are fully mobilised.

I like the thought of a rail system adopted to the game. There has been much discussion about that. I also look at IC that you might build at the front as somewhat of a rail system or supply chain. I don’t look at it as you moved into a hostile tt and built a factory to produce stuff. Then you either brought in workers from home, or had forced labor. I look at it as more of an improved supply line from your factories back at home. I think I’ve heard Larry say something like this in the past, so it stuck. He refers to these forward IC’s as staging areas.

To me rail lines would be cool but then we would have to enact rules that would allow you to destroy the rail lines, etc. I think the way it is now does a good job of showing how tough it is to invade Russia. Germany actually got to withing 15 miles of Moscow but the Russian winter pretty much stopped everything in it’s tracks, and the Russians then counterattacked with winterized units, something the Germans did not have. So in a sense the rails did help move units through Europe but once you got to inland Russia units pretty much had to walk or travel by vehicle to go anywhere.

i understand the mech infantry/tank explanation but i dont like the price hike….russia should get 5 ipc tanks once at war

Couple things I’ll add, after reading all of this thread.

What about when you are taking a territory at all costs?  You hold back one ground unit.  Only one ground unit attacks better than a 2.  It’s best to have a tank in that situation than any other ground unit.

HolKann, do you not know that mechanized infantry can’t blitz, except on a 1:1 ratio with tanks?  Tanks are still the only unit that can blitz, and you need a tank for every mech infantry you want to move through.

In P40, I only buy an occasional tank with Japan.  A very refreshing change from the freaking retarded result of 5 IPC tanks that attack and defend at 3, since Revised.  We’ve all seen it.  Japan building like 10 tanks a turn every turn and sending them at Russia.  The JTDTM strat.  Larry hated that strat too.  That’s why China kept getting bigger and more infantry, and he kept adding territories to East Russia each version.  Now with tanks costing six, you will never, ever see 10 tanks a turn being built by Japan and sent to Moscow.  YAYYYY!!!

Oh, you know what?  You guys all forgot something else.  Tac bombers attack on a 4 when paired with……  a TANK!  Not infantry, not artillery, not mech infantry.  One more thing I nearly forgot.  The mechanized infantry tech allows each mech infantry accompanied by A TANK to attack at 2.  I will be buying more tanks even at 6 when I get this tech.

I’m a mathematician of sorts, too, and I understand all the math arguments various people have put out there, but I think they’re all flawed.  The fact remains, that mobility and attack power creates more options and threats to your enemy, and this can’t really be boiled down by a formula.  Artillery can’t keep up with the mech infantry to help them attack at a 2.  I’m a lot more worried about a bunch of tanks that can go several different directions, and blitz, and attack at 3, and potentially be supported by tac bombers firing at a 4 then a bunch of mech infantry attacking on a 1 that can’t blitz or be supported as effectively by tactical bombers.

It would suck if tanks cost 5 in this 1940 version, in my opinion.  6 restores them to the more rare, exciting, powerful unit that they should have been all along.

@Flashman:

The concern here is that the vital Russian tts are so far away from German production centres that Germany is forced to buy 2 space movement units because it simply takes too long for infantry & artillery produced in Germany to reach the front lines.

If train movement rules were used (which is how all these units actually travelled) then Germany would have no problem buying a reasonable balance of units.  It is the silly movement allowance that makes Germany (and Japan if it pursues an Asian mainland strategy) so dependent on tanks and mech, while Russian can still buy the cheaper units and sit tight until the western Allies turn up in numbers.  This is regardless of combat odds; the Axis problem is in getting the units where they need to be in sufficient time to make their numbers count before the Allies are fully mobilised.

The Germans would be glad of units that have no combat value whatever but can move 3 spaces a time so they can be used up as casualties in order to protect the armoured spearhead.

This is a very good post!

World at war has rail movement as well as many other nice rules. The map and quality of the units (that is, the ones that come with the game; I always use the Axis adn Allies ones) are definitely worse, but as I said a lot of nice and historically more accurate rules (in general). There are definitely also exceptions…

I agree with the price change. Giving you a 50% chance of hitting on BOTH sides is pretty big. A cruiser can do the same amount on the naval side of the game and they’re 12! Be thankful tanks aren’t 12  :-P

@gamerman01:

Couple things I’ll add, after reading all of this thread.

What about when you are taking a territory at all costs?  You hold back one ground unit.  Only one ground unit attacks better than a 2.  It’s best to have a tank in that situation than any other ground unit.

HolKann, do you not know that mechanized infantry can’t blitz, except on a 1:1 ratio with tanks?  Tanks are still the only unit that can blitz, and you need a tank for every mech infantry you want to move through.

In P40, I only buy an occasional tank with Japan.  A very refreshing change from the freaking retarded result of 5 IPC tanks that attack and defend at 3, since Revised.  We’ve all seen it.  Japan building like 10 tanks a turn every turn and sending them at Russia.  The JTDTM strat.  Larry hated that strat too.  That’s why China kept getting bigger and more infantry, and he kept adding territories to East Russia each version.  Now with tanks costing six, you will never, ever see 10 tanks a turn being built by Japan and sent to Moscow.  YAYYYY!!!

Oh, you know what?  You guys all forgot something else.  Tac bombers attack on a 4 when paired with……  a TANK!  Not infantry, not artillery, not mech infantry.  One more thing I nearly forgot.  The mechanized infantry tech allows each mech infantry accompanied by A TANK to attack at 2.  I will be buying more tanks even at 6 when I get this tech.

I’m a mathematician of sorts, too, and I understand all the math arguments various people have put out there, but I think they’re all flawed.  The fact remains, that mobility and attack power creates more options and threats to your enemy, and this can’t really be boiled down by a formula.  Artillery can’t keep up with the mech infantry to help them attack at a 2.  I’m a lot more worried about a bunch of tanks that can go several different directions, and blitz, and attack at 3, and potentially be supported by tac bombers firing at a 4 then a bunch of mech infantry attacking on a 1 that can’t blitz or be supported as effectively by tactical bombers.

It would suck if tanks cost 5 in this 1940 version, in my opinion.  6 restores them to the more rare, exciting, powerful unit that they should have been all along.

Good post!