Seperation of Church and State

@yourbuttocks:

-source: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/venir/voicilafrance/gb/page03.html#01

Notice it is a French site. lol

You are posting american sites. Namely of that agency which caused the bombing of the chinese embassy in Belgrad because it used old city-maps.

I dreally don’t see why quoting a french site when it comes to facts about France is worth a “lol” to you.

Yeah, usually when you’re born into a religious faith you remain in it for the rest of your life. So I can’t believe there is such a high drop off from 90% to 12%. 90% does sound at little high since you do have to consider today’s standards. I’ll probably put that number around the 70’s to 80’s. Simply, religions don’t die out that fast (unless quickly replaced by another religion or being prosecuted for their beliefs).

“American Religions, a source based in the US or one in France?”

It depends. What if France was trying to promote the idea that it was a Catholic state. Then I would have to go with an outside source like the US. On other matters that aren’t so subjective I would go with France.

@TG:

Yeah, usually when you’re born into a religious faith you remain in it for the rest of your life. So I can’t believe there is such a high drop off from 90% to 12%. 90% does sound at little high since you do have to consider today’s standards. I’ll probably put that number around the 70’s to 80’s. Simply, religions don’t die out that fast (unless quickly replaced by another religion or being prosecuted for their beliefs).

12% Catholic, but some (lots) of Deist… Around 70’s and 80’s… you have clearly not visited France in the last century :) Anyway… i don,t say the survey is perfect (there’s no perfect survey), but when it come to the opinion of the people, i think we should ask the people…

The 38% agnostic is certainly because of the question that turn lot of Atheist/Deist into Agnostic…

"Anyway… i don,t say the survey is perfect (there’s no perfect survey), but when it come to the opinion of the people, i think we should ask the people… "

Well, that’s what I want to question. Exactly how many people participated in this survey? How was it done? What was the source of the survey? When was it conducted? Who conducted it? What was the purpose of this survey? Where was it conducted (this is VERY important)? Also, the problem with surveys is that not most of everybody has access to internet surveys. Age also plays a factor in such internet surveys. Until these questions are answered, I don’t think that there can be such at big cut off between 90% to 12%.

For now, I’ll have to stick with YB’s information. At least, I can visit the place and verify it. FinsterniS, where is your information coming from?

Until these questions are answered, I don’t think that there can be such at big cut off between 90% to 12%.

There is NO cut, one is about opinion, the other are just governement statistic. How can you not question the fact there is no agnostic, no deist in the “statistic” ? How can you not question the fact church are vacuum in France, but we are 90% catholic…

For now, I’ll have to stick with YB’s information. At least, I can visit the place and verify it. FinsterniS, where is your information coming from?

institue SOFRES

“There is NO cut, one is about opinion, the other are just governement statistic”

In this case, government statistic is based on previous public opinion and the gathering of information.

“institue SOFRES”

The French Institut SOFRES is integrated into the global net by SOFRES Worldwide. Therefore, it should have some website, which contains the poll. Where is it?

“There is NO cut, one is about opinion, the other are just governement statistic”

In this case, government statistic is based on previous public opinion and the gathering of information.

That is false but i will certainly not argue about statistic vs survey, that is pointless. If you really want to know ask someone that has been in France in the last decade…

I would never trust one person’s opinion, too biased.

@yourbuttocks:

So Mr. Ghoul, the CIA is part of a conspiracy to convince the world that France is mostly Catholic? Just because you disagree with something does not make it not true Mr. Ghoul. Fisternis should have taught you that by now.

It looks like Fisternis is representative of the vocal fraction of French society.

The French Republic is a secular state where all religious faiths and denominations are represented.

-source: http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/venir/voicilafrance/gb/page03.html#01

Notice it is a French site. lol

YB, my rant was not just directed at you.
Posting imforation from one website that shares your opinions doesn’t make your points right either.

For every website that claims one thing I can find some website that claims other.

Mutliple sources at give you a better general idea of what is or isnt fact/right.

I dont know where your CIA comment comes from or what lead you to that thought.

Another example of you not thinking very hard before you type something.

if i may, this is an odd series. Arguing how much of France is catholic, etc.
Let’s say it was 100 - 0.00001% catholic. Would it be right to have inclusion between church and state? If it were 0.00001% Catholic then would Catholics have any rights, or deserve freedom of religious expression?
Do FinsterniS’ data mean that France is more “scientific” than North America, or just that it doesn’t really care or think about spiritual matters?
Does North America’s Christian stats mean that it is not as scientific (yeah right - just look at La Jolla, John’s Hopkins, MIT etc, never mind Canadian ivy leagues) or that they are more willing to consider things outside of the measurable physical realm?
And does America’s high “deist” rate give the people authority to submit a Christian mandate to their leaders? (stupid as Bush might be?)

I will note that i never make any interpretation, too dangerous.

To clear up a couple of points I was trying to make:

First, what I was saying is that what reason would the CIA have to lie? Plus, it is the one of the world’s foremost intelligence gathering organizations, why would French census data be beyond it’s reach?

Second, every French site I consulted refused to list census details on religious breakdown.

Third, Budhists and Agnostics, and etc. were included in breakdown, its just that they were lumped together in a 6% category.

Fourth, your data, Fisternis appears to be from some sort of magazine survey/phone survey, rather than a government census, which my data obtensibly claims to be. Plus, we cannot independently verify it like you can my statistics.

@yourbuttocks:

To clear up a couple of points I was trying to make:

First, what I was saying is that what reason would the CIA have to lie? Plus, it is the one of the world’s foremost intelligence gathering organizations, why would French census data be beyond it’s reach?

The CIA has the same reason to lie (if not more) than any french site.
Public information of the CIA is (if they are a good angency) half true (to keep ppl not suspecting) and half false (to let them think what they want / if they are enemies who look, to misinform them).
Therefore an Intelligence Agency usually has more reason to lie than any other “offical” sites.

So, why did you “lol” at Finsternis quoting a french site???

I am happy you use argument and not insult this time…

SOFRES; that is an agencies that make survey. I do not say they are right, just less wrong than the CIA. Because they base their statistic on survey. We are speaking about OPINION, only survey can be of any interest on that. The CIA does not care about opinion, they don’t have time to loose with that, they just take general statistic about how people are born. Because i am, statisticly, as much christian as you are.

Look at germany in the CIA statistic…

Protestant 38%, Roman Catholic 34%, Muslim 1.7%, unaffiliated or other 26.3%…

Why so much unaffiliated in Germany ? Because germany is more atheist than France (in reality it is similar)? More religious diversity ?

Nein, that is because the CIA does not care about survey, they just look how people are born, and in east germany some are born atheist because of the communist, that is why there is more Unaffiliated in germany.

Also WHY, why you want me so much to be burned ? I am not starting any topic each time i make an argument that i consider good. Is that just because i am a strong atheist ? (just a question). If that is the case i can understand; we are opposite, and i am not gentle with religion.

First, government censuses are conducted by sending pieces of paper to people and they fill them out and check what their income, race, religion, etc. You Fisternis, would be Atheist/Non-Aligned/Other because you would check that box.

Second, the French institute of statistics refused to give me the breakdown, so I had to go with multiple sources which agreed with each other, even if they unfortunately are not French.

Third, what the hell is your conspiracy theories about the CIA? Why would it try to fool the American public into believing that France is mostly Catholic? Why would the French census be beyond it’s grasp (even if it is beyond mine)?

Four, I start topics every time I think I have something interesting to talk about (like global warming)

Five, I am trying to point that France is mostly Catholic because you keep tagging America as some kind of fundamentalist state when in reality we have a higher percentage of non-christians/non-aligned

“Third, what the hell is your conspiracy theories about the CIA? Why would it try to fool the American public into believing that France is mostly Catholic? Why would the French census be beyond it’s grasp (even if it is beyond mine)?”

Evil government plot by CIA to take over France by exploiting religious preference (Catholic in this case) – only reasonable explanation.

For Example:
French Fries come from France
French Fries are Yummy
French Fries go good with Ketchup
Ketchup comes from America (or at least I think)
Therefore, it is in my best interest to annex France. :roll:

@TG:

“Third, what the hell is your conspiracy theories about the CIA? Why would it try to fool the American public into believing that France is mostly Catholic? Why would the French census be beyond it’s grasp (even if it is beyond mine)?”

Evil government plot by CIA to take over France by exploiting religious preference (Catholic in this case) – only reasonable explanation.

For Example:
French Fries come from France
French Fries are Yummy
French Fries go good with Ketchup
Ketchup comes from America (or at least I think)
Therefore, it is in my best interest to annex France. :roll:

yeah, but Frenchmen come from France . . . .

bah, that’s futile, you did’nt even answer my “germany” argument…