Seperation of Church and State

@yourbuttocks:

@FinsterniS:

In fact they do not even use survey… i think the “germany” case is a good argument.

How do you know that the CIA does not use census? What else would they use?

How do you know Germany stats better than CIA?

You got lost somewhere, the stats bout germany IS BY THE CIA

@FinsterniS:

SOFRES; that is an agencies that make survey. I do not say they are right, just less wrong than the CIA. Because they base their statistic on survey. We are speaking about OPINION, only survey can be of any interest on that. The CIA does not care about opinion, they don’t have time to loose with that, they just take general statistic about how people are born. Because i am, statisticly, as much christian as you are.

Look at germany in the CIA statistic…

Protestant 38%, Roman Catholic 34%, Muslim 1.7%, unaffiliated or other 26.3%…

Why so much unaffiliated in Germany ? Because germany is more atheist than France (in reality it is similar)? More religious diversity ?

Nein, that is because the CIA does not care about survey, they just look how people are born, and in east germany some are born atheist because of the communist, that is why there is more Unaffiliated in germany.

Exactly my point. Germany took the full brunt of the protestant reformation, and the ensuing religious wars. Bismarck tried to crush the Catholic Church in Germany. Germany was dominated for decades by the Nazis and later East Germany was owned by the Communists. And Germany is still 1/3 Catholic after all that.

Now look at France. France has gotten off easy as too factors which would suppress Catholicism. The Catholic pouplace rose up to fight the french revolution on more than one occaision. Napoleon even made peace with the Pope, whom he hated, becasue France is so Catholic. In fact they rose up when he had the Pope beaten and imprisoned.

That is why France is more CAtholic than Germany.

i’d always thought of Germany as being protestant (Luthren)/reformed (zwingli and other Dutch and Swiss reformers) far more than being Catholic. That doesn’t make sense to me. Although i see Europe as becoming less and less Catholic as “tradition” is being cast off, and (some) people start trying to make their own way.

South Germany is generally Catholic (Lichtenstein, Bavaria, Austria) while North Germany (Prussia) is generally Protestant.

Historicly you are right YB, but you are thinking like an american, french are not like that, they change very fast, maybe too fast sometime… France was really catholic not so long ago, but it is not the case now. We have no strong Catholic/Christian party, and if the stat said only 12% catholic it is becaue of an exageration of Agnostic, certainly due to the question… At the limit, an agnostic can be consider someone that is not sure. But as always i will argue your Statistics is invalid because there is no survey, and that is for that reason Germany get so much “Unnafiliated”, not because the communist convert a lot of people, (sure they did but not that much) but because the statistic only consider how people are born, i can assure you christianism is stronger in Germany than in France.

I am sure that i you had visit france you would understand how religion is weak. Church are never full, priest are getting really old and our politician never finish their speach with “que dieu bénisse la France”. As CC said, the “old world” start to let down tradition in general, after the WWII there was a renew in Europe.

“Hey Horten, you’ve said it yourself. Europeans are more Liberal. Liberal means change. We’re a conservative country. We don’t change, they do.”

Well, I wouldn’t say we’re conservative, otherwise I would see many of my programs being carried out. Also, the Democratic party has made quite a move in elected positions for the past years, narrowing the gap of the once strong Republican senate. And you have to remember, Bush was a minority president (though public opinion pulls would say differently today). But I will say that America is definitely less liberal then Europe as a whole.

@TG:

“Hey Horten, you’ve said it yourself. Europeans are more Liberal. Liberal means change. We’re a conservative country. We don’t change, they do.”

Well, I wouldn’t say we’re conservative, otherwise I would see many of my programs being carried out. Also, the Democratic party has made quite a move in elected positions for the past years, narrowing the gap of the once strong Republican senate. And you have to remember, Bush was a minority president (though public opinion pulls would say differently today). But I will say that America is definitely less liberal then Europe as a whole.

i think that even the democrats are, as a party, fairly conservative relative to Europeans and Canucks. Canada has a nice middle ground (some might say that the extremists average things out, but that’s not really fair . . . ).

“democrats are, as a party, fairly conservative relative to Canucks”

Whoa, that caught me as a bit odd - not that there’s anything wrong with it. So what would you Canucks call a Republican, a facist Nazi dictator? :roll:

@TG:

“democrats are, as a party, fairly conservative relative to Canucks”

Whoa, that caught me as a bit odd - not that there’s anything wrong with it. So what would you Canucks call a Republican, a facist Nazi dictator? :roll:

either that, or a former reformer/Canadian Alliance party member. They would certainly be to the right of the “Progressive Conservatives” - which was Canada’s conservative/right-wing party (before Reform/CRAP).
Also i meant “conservative relative to the Canucks” in general - obviously we have some wingnuts to both extremes. But take a look at our social programs, humanitarian aid programs, medicare, union strength, blah blah blah . . . . Just another reason why George Bush hates Jean Cretien - opposite ends of the political spectrum (although Cretien is much more “fascist dictator” than most world leaders . . . :) )

@cystic:

@TG:

“democrats are, as a party, fairly conservative relative to Canucks”

Whoa, that caught me as a bit odd - not that there’s anything wrong with it. So what would you Canucks call a Republican, a facist Nazi dictator? :roll:

either that, or a former reformer/Canadian Alliance party member. They would certainly be to the right of the “Progressive Conservatives” - which was Canada’s conservative/right-wing party (before Reform/CRAP).
Also i meant “conservative relative to the Canucks” in general - obviously we have some wingnuts to both extremes. But take a look at our social programs, humanitarian aid programs, medicare, union strength, blah blah blah . . . . Just another reason why George Bush hates Jean Cretien - opposite ends of the political spectrum (although Cretien is much more “fascist dictator” than most world leaders . . . :) )

I think Jean Cretien has brain cancer.
If there was ever a time for Canada to assassinate a Prime Minister, this is it.

“I think Jean Cretien has brain cancer.”

Whoa, don’t you guys have laws against this!? (us Americans have the unfit for duty clause). But to be fair, USA has had its share of “off” presidents. How old was Regan again when he left office? :wink:

@TG:

“I think Jean Cretien has brain cancer.”

Whoa, don’t you guys have laws against this!? (us Americans have the unfit for duty clause). But to be fair, USA has had its share of “off” presidents. How old was Regan again when he left office? :wink:

He doesnt really have brain cancer.
But, if you ever see him talk, you will think his does.

Why, does he even sound worst then George Bush!? (God help us :wink:)

@Mr:

@TG:

“I think Jean Cretien has brain cancer.”

Whoa, don’t you guys have laws against this!? (us Americans have the unfit for duty clause). But to be fair, USA has had its share of “off” presidents. How old was Regan again when he left office? :wink:

He doesnt really have brain cancer.
But, if you ever see him talk, you will think his does.

:lol: That’s not really nice. I think he had some cerebral palsy. It doesn’t change the fact that he is an idiot (albeit a politically savvy one) who can’t speak either national language properly. And the non-pacifist part of me is with Ghoul on the assassinate bit.

It is true that France is more liberal than America, they have had 6 republics and 2 empires in less time than America has been a nation.

Americans are a little gentler on our government(s), we are still on our first republic (the French are on their sixth)

@Yanny:

CC, that is the biggest, unthoughtful insult I have heard you say about France. France was the birthplace of democracy in Europe. Why so many different Goverments? Because every other European Empire, without exception, ganged up on France. France ultimately brought Monarchy down.

Take it easy on the Crypt there Yanny. One comment on the Vichy is not that much of an insult, really. Maybe you should be hammering YB for that. Or did i say something in another post that i’m not cognizant of right now?
And wasn’t Greece the original birthplace of democracy?
And France really didn’t go about it’s democracy in a very polite manner, as i recall . . . the founders of this “democracy” kind of lost their heads over it . . .
woo hoo haa haa . . . i kill me. :lol:

Well whenever I get a little ticked at the French or France, I like to remind myself of a few things that the French gave us:

1. French Fries
2. French Pizza
3. French Toast
4. French Bread
5. French Onion Dip

(well that’s all I could think up for now, but you get the picture :wink:)