AARHE: Phase 3: Income

[Guerrilla Guy]

so these chits go from where to where?
Britain has a “Port” in India, AE, Australia, South Africa, and East Canada… Japan has one in Kwangtung, Philipines, and Solomon Is. The Americans have one in Brazil and Hawaii. And the Italians (if used) have one in Lybia. Instead of having a “set amount”, there amount is represented by the chips.

movement of 2 per turn means how long before the income arrives?
The movement could be increased to 3-4 I would have no problem with that…

the starting map now includes chits in the ocean?
no they are bought later…

the blockade rule covers both saving and spending of income, to capital or IC/VC respectively
currently its a on/off system
we could introduce die rolls
I understand, but it doesn’t allow for preying by Sub Fleets and I think that my system would represent that in a simple system that meshes with the current movement and combat rules… Convoys can still be protected by fleets, giving the British and Japanese an even greater incentive to buy shipping…

GG

[tekkyy]

you can make it 3-4 but then now you can’t esort them very well

so is this like extra income?
like you pay 3 IPC and get a chip (worth 5 IPC) and place it at India?

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by the way as you mentioned “port” I thought about the blockade rule
currently it allows a path containing any combination of land/sea

like Australia’s income go via sea to any of East Africa, then go via land to any of West Africa, then go via sea to UK
or it would go thru the Pacific, then via land through US and Canada, then via sea to UK

is that realistic?

maybe we need to identify WWII sea ports

[Guerrilla Guy]

How do the subs hunt these convoys then? (under your system)

These are actually paid for, there is no additional cost besides the transfer of IPC’s, so technically your just delaying when you’ll get them so you can get more income… Since several convoys are going at once, the enemy will always have a chance to prey on them…

GG

[Jennifer]

@Imperious:

Thats not realistic. Tank Factories dont stop churning out tanks of the capital falls. The raw materials dont come from the capital. The nations resolve to conclude peace or its ability to stop making military hardware are the crucial factors. Even the french fought with their own units as free french years after losing Paris. They even landed entire armored divisions ( primarilly outfitted from britian, but also helped from income from french colonies not axis occupied.

Hmm, no they could still be producing, but when the capital falls odds are the entire production system grinds to a sudden halt because people are worried.  The idea of building infantry would be to represent guerillas and partisans in non-domesticated provinces that are recruited to help liberate their capital.

[Imperious Leader]

Ok heres the first scenario:

In 1940 Germany invaded England and took it over… Churchill and the British people fight from her colonies and from their additional troops and equipment are constructed. Do you think for a second that if england falls … thats it… they just roll over and cry uncle Adolf?  NO they fight on from their colonies where much of their support comes from. Only the people on england now have a different fight as you stated … as partisans…

If Moscow falls Stalin takes the train to Gorki or Kazan and fights from his base in the Urals. The ability to raise additional troops is not encumbered only in the respect that Stalin still has factories and a population to draw recruits from. Once all the factories are gone its a completely a different matter… no equipment = no army. thats the key difference.

If Canada, India, Australia, have fallen then i would agree with you. these colonies are all part of the roots of the British Empire. They are interdependant economically and militarily. Capital falling as a means to conquer a nation is a fossilized concept that is better regulated to a “romantic war” like WW1. Of course it has some effects but a modern nation is not that dependant upon one or two key cities.

[Jennifer]

IL,

I think you are argueing my point.  You lost your factories, so you can only produce light infantrymen.

[Imperious Leader]

we don’t have this unit… its not in this variant. Factories don’t build “infantry” they make tanks, aircraft etc… You should be able to make anything you want as long as you own a factory. In world war two the Soviets moved her factories to the Urals to avoid capture and avoid being captured so they can still fight the war. If your point is their is no effect other than you lose IPC when a capital falls then YES i am arguing your point.

[tekkyy]

@Guerrilla:

How do the subs hunt these convoys then? (under your system)

I was thinking moving from on/off system to dice rolls.

So you may now route your income through hostile sea zones (not hostile territories).

If UK has to route income through SZ 27/28.
And Japan has 3 non-transport units at 27.
Each of those units gets to roll with certain values destroying certain amounts of IPC.

I understand your rule is more realistic.
But it may be too much details.
It would feel weird 1st and 2nd turn UK gets reduced income.
Or you have to place “convoys already on the way” at game startup in a complex way.
How thats for UK, Japan, US. I mean think about how we’ll get chips from China to Eastern US.

[Guerrilla Guy]

Chinese income stays in China…

I would be willing to start with convoys enroute, and it doesn’t have to  be complex… 3-5 for Britain, 2 for Japan, 1 for US… also this way also you might be more willing to purchase oversea factories so you won’t risk losing it… What is the general feeling on this?  Too complex?

GG

[tekkyy]

if we disallow “sea, then land, then sea transport of income” in the blockade rule
then our rules start to converge

adding convoy boxes is not too complex (as I think need to to cater for the fact AA sea zones are much bigger than AAP or AAE sea zones)

having to handle all these chips (moving convoys) is a bit complex

case
much of UK’s income have to go through either sea zone 19, 18 or 17 if Mediterran has hostile navy
if Gemany has units in one of the sea zones, UK simply go through the other two

our convoy boxes have to be a little more sophisticated then those in AAP/AAE

[Guerrilla Guy]

Moving your income is your main qualm, gotcha… I dunno, to me it seems as more of an extra Historical addition which makes more military units alive at once, but then again it is going to add another movement level… I concede to how you and Imp feel about this, at this stage…

GG

[tekkyy]

but we should keep going at designing convoy boxes and/or tuning the blockade rule

Is it unrealistic for income convoy to go through sea then land then sea again?
Should the blockade rule’s income pass be changed so you can’t do that?

[Guerrilla Guy]

I think they should be allowed other land access… I have some other ideas, I will get them on the table soon…

[Guerrilla Guy]

Alright here are some rules about Convoys I have been thinking about (most of these you know from AAE and AAP):

Convoys:
Convoy Boxes represent war goods from commonwealth or foreign holdings being transported back to a central power i.e. the Capital. The Territory that recieves war goods from convoys must be a water territory or the goods are considered forfeited. (Note this will require us to work out some new territory values to compensate for the convoys). These convoy boxes are considered Sea Zones, or in particular, shipping lanes that convoys cross. These boxes are considered 1 Sea Zone for movement purposes. The convoy value is printed in the convoy box, as well as the country that owns it. The Convoys power doesn’t change unless the territory it is going out of and the Capital of the owner is captured. Specific rules concerning capturing convoys will be mentioned later.

Will continue via editting…

GG

[tekkyy]

yep I know the rule is still being formed
but wondering how the rule change to dynamically model new ICs (eg. UK IC In India)

meanwhile I am thinking of blockade rule changes:
*one sea trip only for the travel of IPC
*each hostile naval units (not transports) destroys 2 IPC of all IPCs going through its SZ
*each hostile naval unit that did not do the above destroys 1 IPC of all IPCs going through its adjacent sea zones

eg. German has 1 SS(submarine) at SZ 9, 1 SS at SZ 8, 2 SS at SZ 7
UK routes thru SZ 9, SZ1 then SZ 2 go minimize damage
SS at SZ 9 destroys 2 IPC, SS at SZ 8 destroys 1 IPC, SS at SZ7 does nothing
no dice rolls

[Guerrilla Guy]

No I think I would rather have a search for it… That way the enemy is not guaranteed a victory automatically, which they never had… Now I don’t mind having them automatically steal IPC’s (unless defensive shipping is involved ofcourse)… As far as the IC thing, the Money can be converted to any constructed IC in the world, the point is the enemy has to travel close to the point of origin in order to “kill” the shipping… This is if we are using purely convoy boxes, and that is another reason I wanted to make it mobile…

GG

[tekkyy]

close to the origin? how close?
with blockade rule islands are affected easiest

dice rolls
then how about
each non-transport hostile unit hits 2 IPC of hostile shipping per turn routed via its SZ, after rolling 3 or less
if no shipping was routed via its SZ, it may hit 1 IPC of shipping routed via one of its adjacent unoccupied SZ, after rolling 2 or less

protecting ship is done by placing friendly fleets at strategic points (like Altantic for UK) to perform a safe route of IPCs

[Guerrilla Guy]

But in most situations you will be able to re-route the SeaZones… That is what I am running into…

[tekkyy]

yeah
so to give players a chance to hit convoys
I let naval units hit adjacent sea zones

and I made a mistake, it should be
“if no shipping was routed via its SZ, it may hit 1 IPC of shipping routed via one of its adjacent friendly SZ, after rolling 2 or less”

*note OOB/LHTR definition of friendly sea zone is one without hostile units, occupied or not

1. basically to hit UK convoys you should be in North Altantic
2. by the way, US IPCs in China stays in China…this IS wanted although its not direct goal of blockade rule (being a global rule) but a side effect

[Guerrilla Guy]

Too complicated, what happens if they have several subs along that route, then you are rolling a ton of dice, with only some gameplay results…? How can they hit adjacents anyways? It isn’t realistic… I would rather have convoys… Still working on them, I am getting busier in the school season but I will still try and get them to you…

GG