SEAC (South East Asia Command)

[Young Grasshopper]

You all know how I like to inform the axisandallies.org community of any changes to the house rules we play at the Cliffside Bunker. Well thanks to CWO Marc and his historical research, I have a new name for my seperate UK Pacific power…

SEAC

The United Kingdom Pacific economy will now operate as a separate power apart from the United Kingdom Europe economy. This new UK Pacific power will now be refered to as SEAC (South East Asia Command), it will use French blue units, union jack roundels, and will go between Italy and ANZAC in the turn sequence. Any territory controlled by one of the two separate UK powers (UK Pacific, or UK Europe) regardless of location, will count toward the overall income of the individual UK power that controls it.

(Union Jack roundels, and new French sculpts can be purchased through HBG)

[CWO Marc]

A suggestion: it might be a good idea to use the official A&A rulebook term “power” (rather than “nation”) to refer to the forces that the players control and which each get a spot in the turn-order chart.  I think the rulebook use of “power” is actually a good choice on Larry’s part because it refers in many cases to collective entities which are larger than a single country: for example, Great Britain plus the British-roundel map territories (a collection of Dominions, Crown Colonies and other possessions); the United States (the country itself plus various territories under US jurisdiction); and of course ANZAC (which isn’t a single nation but rather refers collectively to Australia and New Zealand).  In the same way, the term “power” would fit nicely for SEAC, but the term “nation” would be more problematic.

[Young Grasshopper]

Good Point!… 1st post edited.

[Frederick II]

Hey YG, what would someone use for France pieces (besides the UK 1914 pieces which I know you use)? also do you restrict France from buying a carrier when it’s liberated because the UK 1914 pieces don’t have a carrier?

[SEP]

@Frederick:

Hey YG, what would someone use for France pieces (besides the UK 1914 pieces which I know you use)? also do you restrict France from buying a carrier when it’s liberated because the UK 1914 pieces don’t have a carrier?

I had that question as well, in regards to the blue pieces.  What about France?  Why not go with the ANZAC grey pieces?

BTW I like the SEAC idea.  Makes more sense for the combined forces we’re talking about.

[CWO Marc]

Here’s a little chart I made for fun.  It may take a couple of tries for the attachment to post properly.  YG, does this show correctly the turn order you described?

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[Young Grasshopper]

That’s awesome CWO Marc, bang on!

As for the French units, I prefer the celery green British 1914 units from HBG(modification to cruisers required to create destroyers). My only concern was to have enough French ships to cover the setup, we have never needed French carriers, or battleships for that matter, therefore it’s not a problem if they don’t have any (we would cross that bridge when it gets built).

[CWO Marc]

Here’s the answer to those two questions that I was about to post (by cutting and pasting) before your own answer beat me to it:

My guess (and it’s only a guess) at the reason behind YG’s French blue concept is that none of the OOB setup charts (P40, E40 and G40) allocate any French units to the Pacific half of the board.  The only French territory on the Pacific side is French Indochina…and it starts out the game under Japanese control.  It would be impossible for the P40 game by itself to require French pieces anywhere because the game contains no French units, and the G40 rules don’t modify any French setup positions.  Therefore – assuming that no units cross over during play – any blue units on the Pacific side can be assumed to be something other than French units, so it’s easy and non-confusing for the French blue E40 pieces to serve double duty as SEAC units.  This has the added advantage that the French sculpts set won’t go as much to waste as it does ordinarily.

[Young Grasshopper]

@CWO:

Here’s the answer to those two questions that I was about to post (by cutting and pasting) before your own answer beat me to it:

My guess (and it’s only a guess) at the reason behind YG’s French blue concept is that none of the OOB setup charts (P40, E40 and G40) allocate any French units to the Pacific half of the board. The only French territory on the Pacific side is French Indochina…and it starts out the game under Japanese control. It would be impossible for the P40 game by itself to require French pieces anywhere because the game contains no French units, and the G40 rules don’t modify any French setup positions. Therefore – assuming that no units cross over during play – any blue units on the Pacific side can be assumed to be something other than French units, so it’s easy and non-confusing for the French blue E40 pieces to serve double duty as SEAC units. This has the added advantage that the French sculpts set won’t go as much to waste as it does ordinarily.

I myself always play Global 1940, so I wouldn’t be able to offer any insight into using this system with only half the board. That said, my explaination for the use of sculpts when applying SEAC to global games is this…

1. The French and SEAC powers both require cruisers and destroyers, however, the French unit pool does not require mech infantry or tac bombers… therefore the new SEAC power should use the French blue as it has all the Global units available for purchasing, as France very rarley needs them. Extra French blue units can be easily purchased through HBG if you feel you need more for the SEAC power, but finding a set of sculpts for the French will be a little more difficult because not many HBG custom sets come with both cruisers and destroyers.

2. The color cordination is important, I first tried the Ottaman pieces from the 1914 game as French units in Global, however, the color did not blend well with the black German, dark brown Italian, dark green American, or the Russians for that matter. I really like the ottaman colors, but the American green looked aweful when placed close to the Ottamans. Therefore, I needed a light color to balance the contrast on the Europe side. On the other hand, the French blue in the Pacific look amazing, the contrast from other units is sharp and they tend to go well with the union jack roundels (which would look even better if the union jack roundels replaced the UK icon on all SEAC territories).

3. Any suggestion to use the French blue units for both France and SEAC is fine if you’re comfortable with the following 2 issues. First, you will definitely need extra peices French blue pieces from HBG, even though the dead French will soon go back into the tray, there may not be enough cruisers and destroyers for the setup. Also, it’s not impossible for the SEAC units to go deep into the Middle East where there is a French unit in Syria… might get confusing in some situations, but placing national roundels under units close together might work.

[CWO Marc]

Here’s a slightly improved version of the chart.  The SEAC acronym is a newcomer to A&A house rules, so I thought it would be useful to spell out what it means, both literally and in terms of the economy it represents.

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[Young Grasshopper]

@CWO:

Here’s a slightly improved version of the chart.  The SEAC acronym is a newcomer to A&A house rules, so I thought it would be useful to spell out what it means, both literally and in terms of the economy it represents.

Yep, that is better.

Thanks.

[Frederick II]

Here’s an idea you could have both France and SEAC be one power. There is a few problems with it like when Paris is liberated they would just mostly buy in Paris making a strong stack for the allies in one turn. Do you think they would to much economy? Any other thoughts on this?

[knp7765]

Another idea would be to use the celery green UK units to represent SEAC.
The UK sets from HBG has most of the units you would need: artillery, mech inf, tanks, fighter, tac, bomber, battleships and carrier.
That leaves Infantry and all the smaller ships.
For infantry, you could either use the 1914 UK infantry or the celery green UK infantry from revised. Either would work great and both should be available at HBG.
For transports, subs and destroyers, again try using the celery green units from revised. HBG should still have a few in his inventory. Also, the UK subs and transports from 1914 will work.
For cruisers, I would suggest the 1914 UK cruisers.
Pretty sure most if not all of these pieces will be available at HBG. Sometimes you can find someone selling some revised pieces on eBay.

Here’s another idea. If you have ANZAC units from Pacific 40 first edition, those could be your SEAC units. They would be the same color as ANZAC but different sculpts.

[Frederick II]

I also thought about first edition ANZAC pieces but the only problem is that you might get them mixed up with the actual ANZAC forces.

[CWO Marc]

As a little research project, I had a look through the HBG website to see what the options were for putting together from scratch a plausible SEAC force consisting entirely of HBG battle pieces (not OOB A&A pieces) which have already been produced (not sets which are still on pre-order).  My aim was to see if, by combining same-colour versions of two or more types of sets, it would be possible to supply all 14 of the G40/2 unit types: Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Tanks, Artillery, Anti-Aircraft Artillery, Strategic Bombers, Tactical Bombers, Fighters, Aircraft Carriers, Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers, Submarines and Naval Transports.

To my suprise, I discovered that it wasn’t really possible.  Initially I looked at combining three obvious candidates: the WW2 UK Supplement Set, the Allied Supplement Set and the WW2 Neutrals Basic Set.  The first problem I ran into was that, although any two of these sets are available in several matching colours, there is no colour common to all three.  The second problem was that none of them technically includes an Anti-Aircraft Artillery unit either – although the Priest Self-Propelled Artillery from the Allied Supplement Set and the Sexton SP Artillery Gun from the WW2 UK Set could have been pressed into service for lack of anything better if all the other units types could be accounted for.  Problem number three, however, was the fact that none of these sets includes a submarine – so that killed the concept of using a combination of those three sets.

The next thing I tried was to see which countries had submarines and then work backwards from there, even if that meant using non-Allied equipment.  It turns out that there are in fact only two HBG sets with subs: the WW2 Japan Expansion Set, and the WW2 Germany Expansion Set.  Unfortunately, neither of those sets includes a naval transport (nor do the WW2 Japan Supplement Set or the German & Axis Minors Supplement Set 1), and neither of the German sets has a destroyer or a cruiser (though Japan does have such units).  I thought for a moment that these holes could be plugged using the WW2 Neutrals Basic Set, which includes a naval transport, a cruiser and a destroyer – but it’s not available in exactly the same colours as any of the ones used for Japan or Germany.  The nearest match appears to be the Neutral light grey and the German dark grey…but even if a set with two different shades was considered acceptable, it turns out that the WW2 Germany Expansion Set (the source of the submarine) is currently out of stock in dark grey.

So it looks as if, for the time being at least, we’re out of luck constituting a full array of SEAC units using only HBG battle pieces (unless I’ve overlooked a combination which someone else is able to identify, which I’d be glad to hear about).

[Young Grasshopper]

@CWO:

As a little research project, I had a look through the HBG website to see what the options were for putting together from scratch a plausible SEAC force consisting entirely of HBG battle pieces (not OOB A&A pieces) which have already been produced (not sets which are still on pre-order).� � My aim was to see if, by combining same-colour versions of two or more types of sets, it would be possible to supply all 14 of the G40/2 unit types: Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Tanks, Artillery, Anti-Aircraft Artillery, Strategic Bombers, Tactical Bombers, Fighters, Aircraft Carriers, Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers, Submarines and Naval Transports.

To my suprise, I discovered that it wasn’t really possible.� � Initially I looked at combining three obvious candidates: the WW2 UK Supplement Set, the Allied Supplement Set and the WW2 Neutrals Basic Set.� � The first problem I ran into was that, although any two of these sets are available in several matching colours, there is no colour common to all three.� � The second problem was that none of them technically includes an Anti-Aircraft Artillery unit either – although the Priest Self-Propelled Artillery from the Allied Supplement Set and the Sexton SP Artillery Gun from the WW2 UK Set could have been pressed into service for lack of anything better if all the other units types could be accounted for.� � Problem number three, however, was the fact that none of these sets includes a submarine – so that killed the concept of using a combination of those three sets.

The next thing I tried was to see which countries had submarines and then work backwards from there, even if that meant using non-Allied equipment.� � It turns out that there are in fact only two HBG sets with subs: the WW2 Japan Expansion Set, and the WW2 Germany Expansion Set.� � Unfortunately, neither of those sets includes a naval transport (nor do the WW2 Japan Supplement Set or the German & Axis Minors Supplement Set 1), and neither of the German sets has a destroyer or a cruiser (though Japan does have such units).� � I thought for a moment that these holes could be plugged using the WW2 Neutrals Basic Set, which includes a naval transport, a cruiser and a destroyer – but it’s not available in exactly the same colours as any of the ones used for Japan or Germany.� � The nearest match appears to be the Neutral light grey and the German dark grey…but even if a set with two different shades was considered acceptable, it turns out that the WW2 Germany Expansion Set (the source of the submarine) is currently out of stock in dark grey.� �

So it looks as if, for the time being at least, we’re out of luck constituting a full array of SEAC units using only HBG battle pieces (unless I’ve overlooked a combination which someone else is able to identify, which I’d be glad to hear about).

Great research CWO Marc, I myself already knew this when tring to workout the SEAC power months ago. My ultimate solution was to use the French blue sculpts for SEAC and than try to use HBG to fill the French needs in Europe as it’s slightly easier considering they don’t need Subs, Mechs, or Tacs, and can’t really make purchases. The only issue I have come across is the French destroyer and cruiser setup requirments.

[Charles de Gaulle]

For the destroyer problem…Simply use a combo of UKWW1 sea units. E.g.ww1 Battleships and ww1cruisers could be Cruisers and destroyers. Or the way I do it(although those gunless destroyers look awful) use ww1cruiser for cruisers and ww1transports for destroyers. After all my poor Free French Forces never get to do much…in many games the only sea unit left for Frence by F1 is the Madagascar destroyer(then just use the ww1 cruiser)

–Charles de Gaulle leader of France

[Young Grasshopper]

@Charles:

For the destroyer problem…Simply use a combo of UKWW1 sea units. E.g.ww1 Battleships and ww1cruisers could be Cruisers and destroyers. Or the way I do it(although those gunless destroyers look awful) use ww1cruiser for cruisers and ww1transports for destroyers. After all my poor Free French Forces never get to do much…in many games the only sea unit left for Frence by F1 is the Madagascar destroyer(then just use the ww1 cruiser)

                     --Charles de Gaulle leader of France

I agree that the solution for substitute G40 French units lies within the Celery green WW1 UK units from the 1914 game. You will need 3 sets from HBG to get the necessary amount of infantry required for the setup, and how you wish to arrange your cruisers and destroyers is up to you. I myself think that the battleships look to much like battleships, and the transports look too much like ocean liners… so I knife half the cruisers to make destroyers. I like the celery green UK units from 1914 because the color contrast of units in Europe will require France to use a light color, and the tanks, artillery, and fighters are durable and are very cool pieces to add to your set up.

[Charles de Gaulle]

Er….why would we need three sets from HBG?

[Young Grasshopper]

@Charles:

Er….why would we need three sets from HBG?

Each set only comes with 3 infantry, and the french territories need 9. Or you could just buy everything you need separately.