East or west?

[nooob]

ok so heres the question…the bs and tn that germany starts with in the med…which is best direction to send them there are pros/cons for both i need some feedback…please.

[JLord]

I usually send it east to destroy the uk ship and allow a landing in Egypt.  Many people like to place their bid in Africa and send the battleship west in order to unite the German fleet on G2.

I’ll just throw this out there, but I don’t think uniting the fleet on G2 is that important.  Usually the northern German fleet can survive till G3 without uniting.

[Guest]

Buy an AC to protect the Baltic fleet, then use the Med Fleet for Egypt G1, Egypt G2, and Libya G3.

[nooob]

i typically do the ac in the baltic thing good, all-round purchase…but not at least threatening to link the fleets leaves the atlantic corridor wide open…yuk…and you can always go back to egypt on g2 (or libya if blocked by uk destroyer)

thanks for the responses

[Guest]

Skipping Egypt on G1 is an all around BAD idea.

First, it leaves the Suez open.  That allows the UK to sail an AC, 1 TRN and 1 DST through to the Med and up to 2 FIGs for the AC).

Second, it leaves UK with an extra FIG from Egypt.

Third it allows UK to reinforce India, slowing Japan by a couple of turns.

Fourth, it forces Germany to re-deploy in Europe, since they really can’t leave Balkans empty (as often happens) with a UK TRN in the Med.

Fifth, it forces Germany to divert AF to the Med to “deal with” the UK incursion.

Sixth, Germany loses Africa completely and basically forever on Turn ONE.  Add in losing Norway on UK1, and Germany is 5 IPC in the hole the entire game instead of up a few IPC’s for a few rounds in Africa.

Seventh, it allows the US to totally skip Africa and stage for direct landings in Europe on US2, or US 3 depending on UK builds and fleet deployment (if in US3, it will be a very significant landing indeed…).

Eighth, it allows Russia to ignore Kazakh for longer, allowing better focus of troops against Germany AND Japan (this is due to slowing Japan in India. If Japan reaches Persia quickly, USSR has to defend or picket Kazakh, with no Japs in range for quite a number of turns, Kazakh can sit vacant and secure)

Ninth, it allows UK to destroy the Med Fleet on UK1 using 3 FIGs (2 UK, 1 Egypt) and a BOM on UK1.  Even with the SZ8 sub joined to that fleet in SZ13, UK sinks ALL units 95% of the time, and usually with a BOM and 1-2 FIG still alive.  (If the SUB was lost fighting the BB in SZ13 on G1, then the German fleet is sunk 99% of the time, with UK probably having 2 FIGs and a BOM surviving)

Tenth, UK income instead of being reduced into the 20’s will instead be in the low to mid 30’s.  UK will have an average 5-6 extra IPC per round due to losing no territories on G1, having no risk to southern Africa in turns 2-4, and by gaining Libya and Algeria early.  Also realize that in addition to the raw IPC gain, UK gets a double benefit by not having to divert ANY forces to Africa.

OK, I think 10 reasons is enough to justify a major strike on Egypt on G1, supported by the Med Fleet

FYI:  An Egypt strike on G1 w/o the Med Fleet (and assuming Russia hit Ukraine on R1) has a less than 25% chance of taking Egypt, and a 44% chance of costing Germany a FIG (now down 2 FIGs in turn 1… 1 in R1, 1 in G1)

[nooob]

who said anything about leaving egypt alone…those limys are going down the hard way!  with the bid in libya and air support from europe the tranny isnt needed to send that force to the big air field in the sky. agree or disagree?

[Guest]

So you bid an INF to Libya.

You hit Egypt with 2 INF, 1 ARM, 1 FIG, 1 BOM (leaving the UK DST alive to be annoying… and to participate in sinking your German fleet in SZ13

The odds for Egypt with the extra INF are
33% to take w/ 1 ARM
40% remains UK controlled

Not very pretty odds.  And even if you do win, UK will counter-attack, and with your Med Fleet sunk, that is the end of Germany in Africa anyway (1 INF, 1 ART that started in Algeria…)

[nooob]

alrighty so lets say its an ART in libya not an INF(big difference)…also im not so sure that that FiG in ukr is dead(tradeoff  1ger fig for 3rus arm). even if it is with inf, art, arm, fig, bom should still be a tank there.(plan could fail if luck is one sided)  plus how are the uks gonna sink the bismark and escorts with only a bom and des? thats a suicide mission

but this is what im getting at…pros and cons for both options

[kyrial]

NCS hit it right with his “Top 10 reasons to attack Egypt on G1”, and I will add in that there’s not much one can consider overkill. Trust me from experience (sadly) everytime I think “hmmm… I can take Egypt with <insert minimal=”" forces=“”>instead of bringing <insert appropriate=“” forces=“”>I end up losing and it’s all downhill from there with Germany.

It’s kinda sad that, for Germany at least, such a critical battle comes so early in the game. Granted, you can recover from it but it seriously screws up your game.</insert></insert>

[nooob]

with out the ukr fig the battle for egy is tougher…thats for sure. but how often does russia leave its tanks in ukr? thats HUGE for germany…the question is not ‘should germany take egypt?’ the questions is pros vs cons of sending the med fleet east vs west.

there are pros to sending the fleet east no doubt about it. there are also pros to sending the fleet west.  threating the uk, possibly linking the fleet, forcing the uks hand with its first purchase, not losing your sub, excetra, excetra.

thoughts…and thanks for the input

[Guest]

Noob, you are missing 2-3 FIGs in your calculations for the naval battle on UK1 in SZ13.

The UK FIGs can reach (as can the Egypt FIG if it lived) if they land in Gibraltar.

That makes that battle (best case for Germany)
1 TRN, 1 SUB, 1 BB
against
1 DST, 2 FIG, 1 BOM

And that is a 79% Allied win.

[nooob]

i assumed (making asses of both of us) that coupled with the move west, gibraltar is captured by by a ger inf(later to dropped either in western or back in africa/europe)

[Guest]

Now we are on a completely different set of assumptions.

But the “link threat” still isn’t valid since the UK can block it simply by moving to and building in SZ6… out of range of the Med Fleet, but totally blocking the Baltic Fleet.

So even then, the “threat” of a link-up is a bluff that Germany cannot execute, unles UK ALLOWS it to happen (which they might… depends on certain other moves elsewhere…)

[nooob]

true true… however blocking in sea zone 6 might mean risking the royal navy

[Guest]

At the cost of the Baltic fleet and much of Germany’s AF… I’ll take that risk :-)

The US and UK can replace naval and air units… Germany can;t.

[nooob]

again true but theres always a catch…with germanys starting units + 1 ac vs the uk starting + fleet loaded ac, des, and rus sub included that should be wiped in 2 rounds with losing 1 or 2 figs.  that sets the uk back big time and accomplishes something with the baltic fleet that normally wouldnt get done.  so my initial question remanis… is it still better to send the med fleet east?
without the presence of the bs at the mouth of the med your baltic fleet is gonna be in real touble real quick… i hate losing the baltic fleet and not taking anything down with it…

[nooob]

ps how do i get an online game going?

[Guest]

But you can take out the UK BB without using the Med Fleet to do it, and probably not lose a single FIG.

1 SUB SZ8, 1 FIG Western, 1 FIG Norway, 1 FIG Germany against 1 German BB.
Odds are:
100% to kill the BB
90% w/o losing any FIGs
29% still having the SUB!

THat leaves the Med Fleet free to assist with Egypt, and the BB to absorb any potential hit from the SZ15 DST.

Taking Egypt with more force, even with bid units in Libya, is a good idea, since it potentially can prevent a UK counter, or at least reduce the UK forces present in Egypt for the G2 attack.

As for the UK fleet in SZ6…
W/o major assistance from the Luftwaffe, you lose, period.

Even using Germany’s TOTAL available resources (2 SUB, 1 DST, 1 TRN, 1 AC, 5 FIG, 1 BOM) against an SZ6 fleet of 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 BB, 2 TRN, 1 SUB on G2 the odds are indeed good for a win (97%) but your most likely remaining forces are only 4 FIG and a BOM (1 FIG suicides from Libya due to loss of AC). That is not that great of a trade, especially since UK still has 1 more TRN in the water from start, and the US fleet will be arriving later that round to fill in the gaps.

Meanwhile, no AF was available for attacks on Norway (taken in UK1), Ukraine (re-taken by Russia in R2), or to re-take Egypt (liberated on UK1).

The opportunity cost is dreadful!

[Guest]

@nooob:

ps how do i get an online game going?

Review the info on Dicey’s etc at these links
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=5125.0
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=6512.0

And post that you are looking for an opponent here:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?board=52.0

[nooob]

thanks for the links…yeah the uk bs in the med is toast(with the ger bs there the sub will almost always live and it frees up a fighter) +  germany has got 6 figs to into the fleet with so yah 1 splashes in the english channel…thats if it doesnt get shot down 1st(this senario more likely) so the uk loses:1 bs 24 ipcs        vs ger    1 ac 16         
                                                1 ac 16                          1 des 12
                                                1 des 12                        1 fig
                                                2 fig 20
                                                2 trns 16
                                                1 sub 8          net 96ips