AARHE: Phase 3: land Combat

[Imperious Leader]

“When only one side has land units at the beginning of a combat cycle, the other side must retreat at the end of the cycle unless those land units retreat at that time.”

This is very confusing… can it be reworded into 2 sentences? Im not even sure of the meaning, but your saying if one side no longer has any land forces then any other units owned by that player previously involved in combat must also retreat?

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

“When only one side has land units at the beginning of a combat cycle, the other side must retreat at the end of the cycle unless those land units retreat at that time.”

This is very confusing… can it be reworded into 2 sentences? Im not even sure of the meaning, but your saying if one side no longer has any land forces then any other units owned by that player previously involved in combat must also retreat?

I meant to the side with no land units must retreat their air units. And then I thought thats just all units really.
And ended up with that confusing sentence.

“At the end of a combat cycle, the side with no land units must retreat.”

Now that would sound too obvious. So…

“At the end of a land combat cycle, the side with no land units must retreat.”

But that would have a different effect.
Attacking with only air units gives you a cycle of firing. Defending with only air units also gives you a cycle of firing.
But attacking or defending with land+air units gives no free round (cycle) of fire after just losing all your land units.

Is that ok?

[Imperious Leader]

I meant to the side with no land units must retreat their air units. And then I thought thats just all units really.
And ended up with that confusing sentence.

+++++++ok this makes more sense

“At the end of a combat cycle, the side with no land units must retreat.”

++++++ok good right.

Now that would sound too obvious. So…

“At the end of a land combat cycle, the side with no land units must retreat.”

++++ yes im following even better.

But that would have a different effect.
Attacking with only air units gives you a cycle of firing. Defending with only air units also gives you a cycle of firing.
But attacking or defending with land+air units gives no free round (cycle) of fire after just losing all your land units.

Is that ok?

yes its perfect. add it to the phase two stuff. we are moving right along on this.

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

Now that would sound too obvious. So…
“At the end of a land combat cycle, the side with no land units must retreat.”
++++ yes im following even better.

Oh no I was gonna add a second sentence and forgot about it.

I was to highlight the case where you have air units left.

“At the end of a land combat cycle, the side with no land units must retreat. This holds whether you have air units left.”"

[Micoom]

If you look at builds in WWII then in total the powers build more fighters then tanks. But in A&A that will never happen because of the costs…  This is just a thought I came up with…

Tanks and self-propelled guns

Soviet T-34Soviet Union = 105,251 (92,595)
United States = 88,410 (71,067)
Germany = 46,857 (37,794)
United Kingdom = 27,896
Canada = 5,678
Japan = 2,515
Italy = 2,473
Hungary = 500
Note: Number in parenthesis equals the number of tanks and self-propelled guns equipped with main weapons of 75 mm or larger. Smaller producing nations do not have this differentiation.

Fighter aircraft
United States = 99,950
Soviet Union = 63,087
Germany = 55,727
United Kingdom = 49,422
Japan = 30,447
Italy = 4,510

Attack aircraft
Soviet Union = 37,549
Germany = 12,539

Maybe you could change the value of the tank more to that of a fighter. Allthough I think this is better suited for a D12 use. But on D6 make a tank 3+3/3/9.

Example; When a tank scores a 3 or lower on it’s first shot, he gets to roll another roll of 3 or less. This to reflect the possible breaktrough of lines by tanks.

You could also choose to give tanks the extra shot if first is a hit, but not change the value. Only reducing the fighter cost from 10 to 6 or 7… If both are made more expansive… then it could help to see more infantry stacking, and you don’t want that. IMO…

[tekkyy]

Its obvious a fighter costs more than a tank.
But a piece in the game is said to present a division and no further details.

I duno about increasing the tank’s attack.
Both the tank and fighter attacks at 3.

Of course it can be argued that a tank is more powerful than a fighter.
A tank can reload easier and basically keep fighting. A fighter needs to fly back and land everytime after dropping the 1 or 2 bombs it carries.

[Micoom]

Yes, but i would like to see the tank make a extra shot, if the first was a hit… Or will this make them to powerfull?

[Imperious Leader]

OK what does this tank idea supposed to recreate historically?

[Micoom]

@Imperious:

OK what does this tank idea supposed to recreate historically?

The extra shot, reflects to the breaktrough and exploit of the lines by tanks. Tanks were the first to breaktrough the enemy lines. And to put them more in the same category as fighters for strength, this because build totals had been the same in WWII.

[tekkyy]

Build totals only tells us after all the reasoning involves the powers together build as many tanks as fighters.
It doesn’t neccessary mean we need to put tanks in the same category as fighters.

As mentioned they are quite different.

With breakthrough idea we do have biltz and panzerbiltz…

[Imperious Leader]

The extra shot, reflects to the breaktrough and exploit of the lines by tanks. Tanks were the first to breaktrough the enemy lines. And to put them more in the same category as fighters for strength, this because build totals had been the same in WWII.

++++ this is a good goal to incorporate… except how does it simulate the other aspects of Blitzkreig? it contains no movement after breakthru or has any aspects of envelopment attacks.

thinking…

how bout in every battle where the enemy has no armor forces ( destroyed in combat?) your mech units ( air, artillery, tanks) have a special ability as follows:

1. at a 1/1 basis each retreating infantry (defenders) rolls one D6 a result of one and its considered captured ( actually enveloped by attacking armor in a pocket) The piece is removed from play like it was destroyed but ONE ipc is salvaged to the owning player to represent the salvage of some escaping troops.

example: 3 tanks, 1 artillery, and 5 infantry attack 1 tank, and 6 infantry.

The attacking tanks kill the enemy tank and also take out 2 defending infantry…but the defending tank causes a hit ( attacker must lose one armor— he chooses the artillery)

thus with his three tanks the defender must select 3 infantry and 3 d6 are rolled… 2,5,1… thus one infantry is captured… the owner of this unit gets back one ipc on his next turn as partial compensation.

The defender decides to retreat its 4 infantry…

[tekkyy]

I think not only INF but ART is also slow and should be capturable by ARM.

The rule should require overwhelming ARM. Try 2-to-1?

Although so far I feel the complexity is not worth it.

Also, I doubt salvaging INF ammunition is all that useful. Gureilla forces probably maybe not armies.

[Imperious Leader]

Yea its probably a reach and too tactical….

[tekkyy]

I feel our land combat rules are almost complete.

Oh yes we have to sort out those air missions thingo.

Any updates?

[Imperious Leader]

well do we make cutbacks or modifications? more or less?

[tekkyy]

Oh I just realise our quick solution of
“At the end of a land combat cycle, the side with no land units must retreat.”
prevents Battle of Britain type attacks. This can be a problem.

Also, it seems great at the start that land fighters can’t keep firing at enemy naval units (unlike naval fighters which can with carrier support). They can only fight for 1st cycle and retreat (not able to rearm in the SZ).

And then I felt is 1 combat cycle too little? A turn is 6 months and we only allow one “contact” with the enemy?

This leads me to one of your proposed air missions, taking 1-cycle to travel to adjacent territory to help hence starting to fight from 2nd cycle.

Maybe land fighters from Western Europe can keep firing at naval units in SZ 7 but takes 1 cycle to rearm each time? fighting every 2nd cycle?

But this is meaningless unless we implement a combat cycle limit, to say 6 cycles (1 cycle per month you said once?). But this is a huge change that was reasonably dismissed previously.

---

You proposal many air missions. Quite complex.
So lets start with you describing the most (or one of the most) important idea/phenomena you want to model and mention the respectively “air mission”?

[Imperious Leader]

Yea…. the basic idea is the ability of the defender to allow his planes to participate as local air support. This would be possible when his land forces are under attack and he is in or adjacent to the attacked territory, or defending as interceptors when SBR occur, or in any situation from the adjacent territory. The various air missions merely place these ideas in a context of actual military lexicon. It is not really complicated after playing them. They are basically all the same just different enviroments where they are involved. Air interdiction is close to what we have in OOB D-Day.

[tekkyy]

So the most important idea is the calling of planes in adjacent territories to help defend.

Are they allowed to fight more than once?

(UK player attacks Western Europe and Germany.
Germany player DAS some planes from Germany to Western Europe to help.
UK pklayer chooses to resolve Western Europe first.
If that Western Europe attack failed. Germany player movees planes back to where they came from - Germany.
But this happens at the end of the “combat phase” so no problems.

What if that Western Europe attack won, or Germany retreats?
This comes with defender retreat too.
Where can they retreat?)

Are they allowed to help in friendly territory?

[Imperious Leader]

So the most important idea is the calling of planes in adjacent territories to help defend.

Are they allowed to fight more than once?

+++++ yes once when its their own turn and once as the defender. The same planes cannot fight in multiple battles while as attacker or defender.

(UK player attacks Western Europe and Germany.
Germany player DAS some planes from Germany to Western Europe to help.
UK pklayer chooses to resolve Western Europe first.
If that Western Europe attack failed. Germany player movees planes back to where they came from - Germany.
But this happens at the end of the “combat phase” so no problems.

What if that Western Europe attack won, or Germany retreats?
This comes with defender retreat too.
Where can they retreat?)

++++ in the case when the territory that DAS mission was flown from was captured… those planes have to fly to another territory in flight range. Also the same plane can only DAS in one of the attacked territories. so he may want to seperate his force.

Are they allowed to help in friendly territory?

++++ only one

Note: some missions should be allowed in addition to a combat mission like air transport.

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

++++ in the case when the territory that DAS mission was flown from was captured… those planes have to fly to another territory in flight range. Also the same plane can only DAS in one of the attacked territories. so he may want to seperate his force.

Its not only captured. Another case is “pending-combat”.
Should retreating forces be allowed to move into “pending-combat” territories?