Hi! I just figured that there already seem to be pretty good summaries of LHTR vs. the original Revised rulebook. LHTR seemed like the best comparison point since those transport rules seemed to revert largely back to the timing in Classic.
The ADS vs. LL debate
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Was it a half completed map? :-)
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It is treated the same way as it is treated with ADS.
Yep, the ftr gets one shot, then the sub can retreat. A ftr still needs a 3 or lower for the hit.
Thanks, DM.
So it’s only with multiple units that LL actually comes into play? I hoped so. I’ll come back to this debate soon, just not enough time at the moment (and I see everyone is occupied with games anyway…).
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Yes. Any 1 on 1 battle is exactly the same in LL or ADS.
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For those who think that lowluck is totally predictable, consider this. In my game against DM I sent a ger bb + trn vs a uk bb. I was wiped out and the uk bb was still floating. Against Avin with the same battle, both my ships survived and the uk bb became a coral reef!! That’s quite a swing. What lowluck does is prevent an extreme such as me sending in 4 arm vs 2 inf and all my arm miss and the 2 inf drill me. In lowluck, I know that I’m going to nail the 2 inf bastards, which is how it should be. Now if they would just change that nutty sbr rule in lowluck, I’d be a big fan!!!
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I’m new to LL… what is this SBR problem you have?
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In LL, bombers can’t be shot down during SBR’s. So to simulate the loss of bombers to AA-fire, the attacker also loses IPC when he does a SBR.
Example, if Germany does an SBR on Russia, the Russian player will lose either 2, 3, or 4 IPC, BUT the German player will also lose either 2 or 3 IPC (which is taken out of the cash they earn at the end of their turn).
There are situations where either side can really exploit this, but for the most part I don’t think it really comes into play until one side already gains an advantage.
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… if Germany does an SBR on Russia, the Russian player will lose either 2, 3, or 4 IPC, BUT the German player will also lose either 2 or 3 IPC (which is taken out of the cash they earn at the end of their turn)…
How is that fair? And is the best scenario Russia loses 4 IPC and Germany loses 2 IPC. Thats really dumb. But maybe its just because I don’t understand how LL is played.
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LOL!
Nope. You’ll find many people will agree with you.  :-D
You can probably see why Maddogg wanted that changed and Ncscswitch is very Anti-LL for several reason including the SBR rules.
It all comes down to trying to eliminate the extreme results. Like a player who does SBR’s and gets a few 5, 6’s in a row or the player that loses 2 of his bombers to aa-fire immediately.
I think the breakdown is if the avg SBR does 3.5 damage (in ADS)Â but you lose a bom every 6th turn meaning a loss of 2.5 IPC (15/6) per bombimg run then the LL method kind of makes sense.
If you take the 3.5 * 5 (b/c 1 bom gets shot down on the 6th turn), you get about 18 IPC damage for 6 boms.
Then take the 2.5 *6 (b/c you did 6 boming runs), you get 15 IPC the cost of a bomber.
The LL method will guarantee that after 6 runs you do about 18 IPC damage (2,3,4) and will lose about 15 IPC (2,3).
In ADS if you do 6 SBR’s you get 1 shot down but will do about the same damage for the cost of 1 bomber.
I don’t do a lot of SBR’s to begin with so it doesn’t really effect my play, but there are certainly players that don’t like it.
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Not being able to KILL the bombers with AA fire is pure BS.
Kill the LL SBR rule and leave it like every other 1-on-1 situation in LL… effectively ADS.
SBR in LL is FRACKED, and is a MAJOR reason I will not play it.
(I played one game LL, I hated it, and I will NOT play LL again) -
I know you kind of swore off 2nd Ed, but I think in the future you could probably find players to play LL with ADS SBR rules, including myself. But I’ll also play regular ADS to begin with so it probably isn’t an issue. :-P
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Give me a few months and I may be ready to play you again in Classic.
But sometime in the not too distant future, we have a Revised game to play :-)
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I agree with the position that SBR in LL is very different from SBR in ADS.
As DM explained, if you were to conduct 6 SBRs in LL and 6 SBRs in ADS, the result would be what you would expect given the respective natures of each dice system: in LL you would lose roughly 15 IPCs and cause roughly 18 IPCs of damage, whereas in ADS you would lose roughly one bomber (with larger variance than the attackers possible loss in LL) and cause roughly 18 IPCs damage (again, with larger variance than the defender’s loss in LL).
The problem lies in the fact that no one does 6 SBR raids in a single turn. So although one sixth of each of the above results is what you get in the respective dice systems, and conceptually they may make sense, it amounts to something very different. In ADS, doing an SBR amounts to essentially a “reverse lottery” : a relatively good payout the majority of the time, which is what you expect, and a really bad payout in rare situations. LowLuck gives you a really minor good payout pretty much all the time. Or at least, this would be the situation if 1 IPC in the hands of each country is equivalent, but all experienced players know that 1 IPC in the hands of Russia or Germany is worth a lot more than 1 IPC in the hands of any of the other powers. However the survival of the bomber is worth a lot more to the other powers. So there are a number of factors involved, the net result being that SBRs end up being very different.
Of course, different does not equate bad. After getting used to it, I don’t mind nearly as much now.
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But as so many folks have said… SBR for the typical player is a BAD move most of the time. It is used only rarely, and then only in a special circumstance such as to weaken Russia’s build the round before the German or Japan hammer falls, or likewise to weaken Germany’s build before the US and UK hammer falls.
In those cases, the 1-6 chance of losing a bomber in order to prevent 2 INF (on average) from being built is a good risk. Almost all of the time, your bomber lives, your enemy builds 1-2 fewer INF, and you use the BOM again for the main assault.
Most high grade players will not do repeated and sustained SBR’s. Which means the average over 6 SBR’s is meaningless… few players will ATTEMPT 6 SBR’s in a single game.
BUT… with SBR’s being “free”… meaning they cost the attacker no bombers and guarantee the loss of income to the nation attacked, SBR’s become a viable strat. And here I point to my game with Avin. Repeated SBR’s of Germany, trading UK’s income for Germany’s income, but still leaving a net effect of the US untouched. And when the final raids on Berlin were set, the Allies had a LARGE number of Bombers to provide offensive punch to the attack since they were NEVER at risk while destroying Germany’s income.
And that simply is wrong. It sets up a situation where the BEST strategy for teh Allies is a large number of US and UK bombers to elliminate Germany’s builds, while the Allies still have income left after bombing, and then use all those bombers that were unkillable for X rounds to lead the attack on Berlin.
It is a BULLSHITE strategy that is only feasible in LL, and it is also pretty much a guaranteed win for the Allies, even with a sizable Axis bid. Who cares if Germany takes Africa if you can bomb them to zero income after just 3 turns of purchases, and then have the US and UK spend 2-3 more turns building TRNs and land units to land in Europe against only the forces that Germany has left alive from their starting units and G1-3 purchases (since they have not been able to BUY ANYTHING since G3 due to SBRs). If Russia was played well at all THEY have enough offensive punch to kill Germany quickly once Germany is bombed to ZERO income starting in Turn 4 with unkillable bombers.
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Switch you have to realize that if what you’re saying is true, then good players would simply not win with Axis in LL with bids below 25 or 24 against other good players. But it remains a fact that they do, and for all your argument you put up, you simply cannot contest that fact.
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Switch, with a large bid, if the Allies just bought bombers for the first two rds, you would concede too much territory and economy to the Axis which causes a few problems:
1) As soon as the Axis IPC hit the 74-73 adv, then SBR’s would be in there favor. I believe the Axis do start out with the numbers adv in miliatry units. Esp with bid of 22-23 (or more). Well at least Germany.
2)Â You leave yourself open to an M84 lunge by Japan.
3) With the IPC Adv the Axis (Japan) can employ the strat to Russia. 40 IPC to 22, who has the adv there?
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We may have to play this one out Darth…
A Russian picket and turtle to slow Japan, while also providing the means to prevent Germany’s income increase from occuring in Europe… Allied BOMs and a few TRNs…
As you have said before, I don;t think Japan can move that fast…
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I’ve learned that the japs need to exersize a little patience!
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Darth taught me that too MD.
That is why I am unsure that Japan can put a monkey wrench into an Allied SBR strat…
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Well, Avin’s bombing the hell out of germany and I’m bombing the hell out of russia. Let’s see what gives!! :-o
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So far, I’d say the bombing has been about equally damaging to both sides in our game, MD. Note that I sacrificed a larger UK transport/unit build in UK2 to buy a bomber on UK1: had you done something similar with Japan you could have had an extra bomber against Russia as well. Next round I don’t think Russia is going to have hardly any money to spend at all in fact (on R5) given the production you’ve reduced me to plus the bombing.
So switch, are you saying that you’re willing to play LL again to contest your claim?
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