update: posted a medit gambit strategy, the optimal sea lion strategy, and the gambit play.
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I realized the med sea play usually follows a sea lion feign. So you really want to optimize for sea lion. Then you have the option of doing sea lion if the allies get fancy / do something other than buy to defend london… or you can strait up buy more naval and surge it into the med.
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Well I think that concludes this for some time. I may update with other round 2 buys, but I think everyone has their own preferences as far as that goes.
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I would also like to say that since I posted my openers with a general description of my overall strategy for each one that the allies play against me has become stronger.
Hopefully this helps newcomers to the board get a good feel for what the axis is all about. Then when you are the allies you can look at various NOs of the axis and figure out where their weaknesses lie. Perhaps this helps you gauge the timing of when and how many fighters you need to send to Russia to defend it against a German attack (also how many units are necessary to deflect a sea lion attack etc). Knowing what the axis are trying to accomplish by their opening moves should help considerably.
See this game how I call Cows sealion bluff.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=30061.0
My buy? 2subs,1bomber and an artillery.
Sealion and J1 is not a good combination. Anyone who buys 9 inf is to defencive. If Axis go London nothing stops Soviet,US,Brit,China,Anzac from killing Japan.
In that game I got some bad dice on G1. Come on.
Outlier results are outlier results, they happen, but it is not the norm.
In a low luck game where everything goes smooth, I would do sea lion if you did that buy. In a dice game in which maybe I lost southern france, but not 3 air units in sz 111… I would do sea lion against that buy.
Lost too much stuff G1. Plus I did not send 2 subs to 106. It was intended to go barb after and strafed yugoslavia instead of taking it. I recommend skipping Southern France if you plan on doing barb, it makes france a bit dicier and you will want your mech in tact.
Normally against that buy Rommel I would do sea lion, all day, everyday. Lost 4 air units which made the battle a coin toss if I opted to go for it. I do not see the relevance of bringing that up.
Do we need to bring up all of soulfein’s games? He does exact openers by the book. I think RPG44 does the optimal sea lion thing, which has worked out great for him in the last 5 games (his current one he got diced on France, France was 98% battle and he lost).
I mean crazy stuff happens sometimes, but it is not the majority of games. Maybe 1/10 if you count both Germany and Japan round 1 attacks and where they can go wrong.
I lost the attack on philipines in a couple games and that is a 99% battle… all of a sudden J1 should never be done?
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It is a dice game. The confidence interval depends on scrambling, but assuming no scramble one can be 95% confident if you calculate the odds of these battles. Just add the % odds of losing each battle up. It is pretty darn close to 95% confidence.
I usually send 2 subs to 106, losing that battle sucks, but that is the part of the turn I am generally least confident in. If it works out I am happy, if not oh well what else were the subs going to do.
Yes it is true, if Germany loses 4 air units, you can get away with buying bombers n such. How many games is that?
Remember units stacked in London have no value exept for defence. As have units in US no value before transported. Units in Anzac have no value unless transported away or attacked.
If Germany where to attack UK with 60-80% (the odds I would be willing to give), odds that would give every defending unit instant value (as they kill of germans obviusly). Not only that but it would force germany to invest 100tuv in trannies that have small value later. If US anticipated sealion they can bmb fleet and land in Ire, Scotland. Germany can buy more fleet to protect its fleet, but that just might be counterproductive.
London is not a big gain for Germany if the price they paid was to high. It simply conclude that germany have close to zero chance of europe victory because soviet will have to high amount of landunits and everyone is free to destabilize Japan in 8 rounds. Surviving a full pacific by US player with some amount of skill is nearly impossible for Japan, even if they deside to “suicide” themselves on India.
I have no problem buying a sub,fgt or bmb my first turn as UK. Most good players will go for soviet anyway as their lebensraum NO’s are there.
Dont worry about loosing London, just make sure you understand what type of strategy you must play after London is lost.
My logic is undeniable.
@Cow:
If you think UK would be happy to scramble against the luffewaffe then sea lion will hit you 8-9/10 times.
Actually, I said the opposite, but oh well.
@Cow:
If you think UK would be happy to scramble against the luffewaffe then sea lion will hit you 8-9/10 times.
But don’t those z110 ships being left alive kind of make up for losing the fighters in z109? When you do your sealion you will have to divert planes to the sea zone. Plus you will probably lose 3 planes against the 4 fighters & destroyer. Fighters from Malta & Gibraltar may be in London in time to intercept an Italian SBR on the airbase I2, and those same planes (plus the tac) can scramble if the airbase is still operational.
If you strafe z109 and back out, the transport survives and it might be used to bring the french guys from Morocco and Algeria to London, plus the inf/AA from Malta with the z98 transport. The z110 ships and carrier will protect the transports with the z98 destroyer moved to block z94. Planes that hit z109 have to land in Holland and they can’t attack z92 without and airbase and Algeria as landing spot, all very unlikely. That fleet will sit in z110 and if you try to go in thru z109 you won’t be able to protect your fleet from US airstrike with carrier build G3.
A capital is a capital.
USA can try to liberate it, I like that, because my Japan play is strong.
USA can try to ignore it, I like that, because I will come over and take a shot at America eventually and drop many men onto East USA.
~My logic is undeniable~
If you do not score enough hits on defense with UK, at least enough to cut into the armor, then you lost. That armor kicks Russia out of Europe, real fast.
I stated that UK can live with odds 60-80% and be opportunistic. You simply calc odds at sealion r1 and get as artistic with your buy as possible. In some few scenarios you might need 9inf, but usualy you will not, and then you need to have the balls to do something.
It depends on Germany’s opener and how the battles go. Yes, we get that!
Cow,
Variance and I are questioning your “undeniable logic” about attacking 109 during G1, and you have completely avoided answering us. Can you please give us your reasoning behind attacking 109 G1, with what units, and with what follow up strategy.
It just seems like an easier battle to do. Plus I do not care if about the cruisers and battleships. I am rushing toward moscow.
UK can have that naval, I am attacking Russia round 5 or round 6.
You know what Italy is going to do? Guard Europe. Bomb Russia maybe. Just take care of Europe so Germany can take Russia round 5 or 6. I3 is when you send the one industrial bomber and have fun.
It is just a one way war machine. Who cares about boats and oceans anyway?
I think attacking z109 likely will be a waste of time. If you do an all-navy build and land almost all your planes in Holland, then all Russia needs to do to slow you down bad is to stack Baltic States and West Ukraine with everything in range for a turn (yes I would even put the planes in Baltic States). You could attack that if Italy clears the cruiser in z114 but they have better things to do with the fighters on round 1. But if you go for it, you can probably get Baltic States (and the red airforce!), BUT the counterattack from Leningrad will set you right back and then you have NO INFANTRY at all for your rush into Moscow. The better option for you at that point would be to put off DOW on USSR til G3, but then the Russians will just pull back from Baltic States and on that schedule you will never get past the infantry in Bryansk. So z109 is a waste of time, and if you let z110 alone you are going to have a hard time getting London by sealion G3 too.
Now if you were to do this with an airbase in Holland instead of the carrier, then maybe you would have some options.
Am I missing something big or did v2 change the rules about mech infantry. How are you attacking southern france with them if no armors are helping you to move the 2 instead of 1?
Am I missing something big or did v2 change the rules about mech infantry. How are you attacking southern france with them if no armors are helping you to move the 2 instead of 1?
They could always move two spaces, they just cannot blitz without armors.
The 3 mech 3 armor buy is what makes baltic states hold. you should hold. I would love to be attacked by Russia. I do not need infantry to take Russia over. I am just a one way war machine. Make things easier for me! I am attacking Russia round 5 or 6 no matter what! That is the point of G1 DOW there is no waiting. Unless you need to hang in the game for Japan to win it on his end.
The 3 mech 3 armor buy is what makes baltic states hold. you should hold. I would love to be attacked by Russia. I do not need infantry to take Russia over. I am just a one way war machine. Make things easier for me! I am attacking Russia round 5 or 6 no matter what! That is the point of G1 DOW there is no waiting. Unless you need to hang in the game for Japan to win it on his end.
I find any ground units buy with germany more resonable than fleet. I usualy hold baltic easy with 3mec,3art and 2inf buy.
I agree with Cow and erinrommel. A big fleet buy for Germany sucks. I could see hitting z109 and z111 like Cow suggested to kill destroyers if you are going to convoy raid UK so maybe something like 2 subs, 3 mech, tank?
Seems like there has been a huge shift in strategy from a German fleet purchase G1, to a ground force right away, but I still like my S.Bomber, Fighter, Destroyer buy first turn. Personally am glad to be getting away from the “mandatory” aircraft carrier buy from days past, however, I keep my options open for a German aircraft carrier purchase in the Med turn 3 or 4 if the Italian fleet is worth saving.
I have to agree with Variance about 109, and allowing UK to build on top of a big fleet, plus what ever the US can contribute is dangerous. I understand your plan to take Moscow fast, but if you stutter for any number of reasons (none bigger than bad dice), the allied fleet will become untouchable, and will make multiple landings where ever they like.
As far as G1 attacks go, they are more comprehensible in conjunction with a dedicated Barbarossa strat and a mech/armor buy on G1. It seems like G1 is problematic unless you are trying to get Moscow early (say G5, G6 latest) because if you wait a while, the Soviets benefit from the extra lend-lease money and the extra money in Iraq. But if you are going for Russia’s throat then G1 seems worth a look.
The utility of G2 seems to depend, imho, on whether Germany can hold Baltic States and whether G needs to declare G2 to get Novgorod G3. It also depends on Germany’s overall strategy….eg did G successfully strafe Yugo, did G buy mech/arm G1 etc. But if a G2 declaration makes it possible to take Novgorod and get that bonus G3 then it’s worth considering…I find that if I buy inf/art on G1 then it’s hard to hold Baltic States on G2…but if you bought mech/arm on G1, that would change things.
