Japan ti & t2

[Guest]

First off, moving the CV to ficbsz is to deter the UK from blocking transports from landing on ficb on j2. Second, this strat assumes retaking manchuria is more important than Pearl. The US could attack Japansz on t1 with CV sub and fighter vs. 2BB and 4 trans. I don’t think my US opponent will do this, but he might if he could read my mind. Or he could bring in the BB and tran and Pearl fleet to North Pac. and try for an attack on US2. That gives japan time to send sub and CV with 1 or 2 fighters to japan sz. On j2 3 trans have attacked/reinforced ficb leaving 1tran plus 1 or 2 trans built on j2 in japan sz. The what ifs make things murky at this point, but i don’t see a fatal flaw, do you?

[Xi]

Okay! I see. But you leave the US fleet intact to sail to the UK sz and help with the invasion. Not a good idea.

I won’t give details now. Just say that Japan has to take pressure of Germany. One way to do that is chop up the US fleet.

Hopefully someone else will detail it before I get back.

But, try it and see what your opponent does.

[Guest]

I tried the strat and here are the results. Russia took Manchuria with 2inf and 1arm remaining. Japan easily took US China. Japan attacked manchuria with 4inf 2fighters and 2BB bombardment. Both BBs missed and I ended up retreating fighters with Russian arm remaining. As I guessed the US fleet did not go for the panama canal. Instead, sent everything towards Alaska. Any way, without going into much detail, after 4 rounds Japan has captured India, Sinkiang and Yakut but pretty thin. There is an IC in Kwangtung, no Navy outside a couple of transports 2 fighters and Bomber. I think around 35 IPCs. Germany is pretty strong in Ukraine EE and Germany with a small force in Algeria and 2trans in Med. Russia has buko inf and and 3arm in Karelia. UK and US airfoce also in Karelia. UK has 2arm in WE with a bunch of trans in Baltic and UKsz. US has a small force in territory south of Algeria, trans and stuff to put on them in EUSsz. An IC in Alaska! With 6inf maybe a tank and 4trans near Alaska.
the low point for the Axis was when Germany sent 2fighter and 1 bomber aganst 3 UKtrans. Germany missed altogether whil 3 trans scored 2 hits! Ishould have retreated the bomber but I pressed on, losing the bomber an killing only 1trans.
All in all the strat worked by keeping the US in the Pacific. But the combination of bad dice, the cry of a loser, and Allies advantage in a nonRR game has given the Allies a slight upper hand. The game is adjourned util saturday night - yes I have no life, but I’m old. Anyone with any advice at this point would be appreciated. Xi, CC et al. HELP!

[cystic crypt]

Dubya - no advice right now, but i am crying for you. I think that Japan needs to move all available fleets to JP SZ (no duh!), and keep dropping stuff (subs, trns, etc.) into the sea. Don´t worry about your thin line in Asia. Keep the press up in East Eur, and you´ll expand your territory eventually. Not good for the Axis to be in a defensive position (esp Japan, esp like this). If the board is how i imagine, i think that hari-kari is not far off from a good strat with a mulligan.

[Guest]

Well, the game was this past Sat. On Russia"s first move, took EE!. I was sort of hoping he would try that but i didnt count on him having 7inf and 3arm on EE after the battle. I probably should have conceded then, but he had made a snide remark about me making a mistake by Japan leaving Burma open and UK could take it from Australia. After he did this Japan retook Burma and landed an infantry in Australia. He took the bait, but eventually had the last laff, as the Germans were ground into dust.
I don’t think the no pearl strat hurt or helped either side. I think if I were US I’d take the whole party through the Panama Canal. For our next game I agreed to be axis again,and my opponent agreed to RR. In this case I think I will do pearl - gotta do something with those BBs.
My main question is what to do with Baltic sub and tran? I’ve never played with those toys before. Anyway thanks for all the advice, but after that last game, give me better dice!

[BigBlocky]

Russia: Nothing but Infantry unless you would end up with 2 IPC’s left. If no-attack on round #1, then everything but 1 Infantry into Karelia and pull all out of the soviet far east save 1 INF for a strong counter attack. If attack on round #1, attack the german navy for sure, make him lose fighters for sinking the brit navy.

Germany: I’ve found that lots of infantry pays off towards later rounds, depends on the foe. I’ve played 200 times over 20 years, the germans and the russians stalemate, the brits and the US threaten the german coast while bring troops via finland. Lots of infantry means low value targets along the coast with high defense. Sink the Brit navy on turn 1, go all out. A varient, build 1 transport south, hit egypt with battleship, transport maybe air support and hope for victory against the brit sub, take egypt so allied air can’t attack navy and land, keep fighter in range of gibralter if the bit bomber needs to land there to kill german transport…… If all goes well it’s too costly to sink the german south navy, get some forces into africa and nurse it for IPCs. By T3 or so no more forces to africa unless cake walking in europe. Long term goal is to survive long enough for the Japs to crush. Keep bomber in western europe to smoke undefended transports on US coast.

Brits: You should end up with 1 transport off Canada and 1 off India, the rest is sunk and hopefully you took some german air with it. Either build 1 carrier and 1 transport, move in transport from Canada, move in US transport on US turn, USA flies 2 fighters to brit carrier. If the german position is too strong, save all your cash and build a bigger navy next turn. I’ve waited until turn 3 to build the brit navy and save all my cash the prior 2 turns. This requires the US to commit 50-75% of her resources.

Japs: Not a big fan of factories early on nor pearl harbour. Japan has good air power but needs cannon fodder ie infantry on land. A factory becomes an anchor, you must protect it, then build an AA for it. If you build factories, you build tanks with 'em cause you only build 3 units/turn at best with them. Build 2 transports and 3 infantry on round 1. Optimise their use, remember to take 1 infantry off a close island and 1 off Japan. 4 transports moves 8 infantry per turn on the mainland, Japan can’t build more than that until round 3 and latter. Save any excess money after 8 infantry per round then build a 5th transport. Now you are moving 30 IPC/turn onto the mainland. You don’t need any more transports. Your fleet should always move between Japan and Burma, move to burma and drop off infantry, then move the fleet to Japan and drop off infantry in Manchuria. Sooner or later you will see a huge opportunity to move the fleet from burma to africa, even if you don’t, the allies must defend the threat… If you must tie up your transports for fleet defense (cannon fodder) or your transports are in africa dropping off, then build a factory to take up the slack production. Japan must maximize it’s threat potential causing allies to use resources defending your options. Do this while always getting infantry to the contintent via transports. As the game progresses build 1 or 2 factories to get tanks to bare quickly. How often have you seen the japanese use tanks for fodder? If the german player is a rock of infantry stability you can crank you income to silly levels, make the russians defend russia. A huge allied multinational force is great on defence useless on offense, think economic victory…

United States. Logistics, Logistics, Logistics… The main key is bring troops over with british help to finland. You have transports in england, they move to Canada and load, move to england and unload in finland, it’s a long supply line, the sooner it gets going the sooner you threaten the german coast and get units onto karelia then against the Japs. If you build 1 transport on the east coast you must build 2 loads, 1 to go with it and 1 to move to Canada for next turns pick up. Build 2-3 transports on the east coast (watch for german bomber in west europe) and lots of equipment, plan your supply line. Sooner or later the british must move their fleet to land units on africa, you will have to move your fleet as well, a good time to have tanks in Canada to pick up and drop off in Algeria.

Allies: With good allied logistics you don’t need any strategy. Just outproduce, tie up the axis forces with threats, play conservative and avoid mistakes or close battles. Keep an eye on Japanese expansion in Africa, keep a tank or two there as ‘safties’. Build infantry, transports move 2 per round, once the supply line is set up the US brings over 8 infantry and a tank per round, the brits maybe 1 tank and as many infantry per round as IPC’s permit. Slip a few allied units with the russians to open opportunities (knock out the 1 infantry blocking the way to 2 bombers behind…) but stack most of them on karelia freeing the russians to repel the Japs.

Axis: Prayer… All out attack on the brit navy by the germans, milk africa for IPCs stay alive for the Japs. Japs must think expansion always.

[Guest]

BB, I hear ya loud and clear. i especially like the German variant V. Egypt. My original question had a lot to do with not doing Pearl, which you seem to agree. However in an RR game, or any game where Russia does not take manchuria, i think pearl may be necessary if only to keep that AC and fighter from heading to the panama canal, threatening germany by t3. I like your focus on logistics, an area which i need considerable improvment. thanks for the feedback.

[BigBlocky]

I’m not very concerned with the US moving the Pacific fleet to the Atlantic. I’m part of a hard-core group of about 7 guys, over the years we’ve gottem fairly vicious and efficient. The brits and USA can’t afford to wait, it would be the Brits fourth turn by the time that carrier got to England, too late. The brits must have a navy by turn 2 maybe 3 that is tough enough to prevent the Germans from attacking it. At best it gives you a luxury of perhaps splitting the US and Brit atlantic fleet later on but why would you need to? Perhaps it might make sense to have them on the coast of the atlantic to protect newly built transports, but if Germany doesn’t put their bomber on Western Europe on turn1, you build all the transports you will ever need, the newly built Brit carrier with your fighters and the combined transport force (4-5 Brit and 4-5 USA) is enough navy.

[Xi]

If german fleet is wiped out by UK 1-
UK does not build on UK1. Saves IPCs and builds (on UK2)
too big a fleet for Germany to mess.

Problem solved.

Japan-Kill US fleet. Build 2 TRN & 3 INF on J1.
Build 1 TRN and the rest INF on J2.
Ship it all to MAN. focus - KILL USSR or the game is kerput!

[BigBlocky]

Depending on what exactly can hit the Brit home waters and what is left I often build a brit carrier, xport and inf on T1. Move surviving allied navy in, kill enemy navy around with air. On US turn she supplies 2 ftrs for carrier. If there is 1 brit xport left, you have 1 loaded carrier and 3 xports. 14D with 6 units and fodder. If the Germans have > 4 air units and the allies have only 14D with 6 units then perhaps a bit too risky. If you get that allied navy up on T1 then the allies take Finland on T2 and the benefits compound over the turns.

BB

[Xi]

Yeah, I see, B_B_.
My plan was for worst case scenario.

@W:

:D …after 4 rounds Japan has captured India, Sinkiang and Yakut but pretty thin…

W, this means 4-5 turns for allies to prepare before you get anything to attack RUS(the capital) . Where was your IJN (fleet) to hit 4 TRNs off ALK?

I disagree with B_B_s FICB/MAN rotation. Again,
Japan’s objective is to attack USSSR[drop INF in MAN] to reduce USSR’s IPC/INF count. Use B_B_'s build, use FTRs as ARM.
I would consider the FICB(Burma) move once Japan had a force that USSR could not counter(as the game ends.)

[BigBlocky]

I have NEVER seen Japan have a force strong enough to take out Russia before turn 10. 80% of our games have an allied fleet on the start of the German’s second turn that can deliver a dozen units, this rises to 20 by Turn 3 (not sustained as the brit income falls as it loses most of Africa/India but units are available from Norway to attack the german coast). So it’s no doubt my Japan technique of the fleet rotation is alien to you Xi. What seems to happen is that allied forces VERY quickly flow into Karelia and a few tanks backed up by air power move against the Japs. They Japs really never get the luxury of sitting back and building up, it’s a war of attrition and you need units to move from Siam to India and west. You don’t need to rotate the entire fleet, just a few xports with adequate protection so my Jap capital ships don’t generally wander around alot.

After you lose Africa to Japan a few times you respect the Japs ability to quickly flow forces anywhere, this causes the allies to tie up their equipment as ‘safties’. Yes Japan can start to ‘pressure’ Russia, causing her to keep more and more units in russia. You can never look at 1 area of the map in isolation. The germans are paralized by T3 with the combined allied navy being able to hit 3 critical spots. We’ll have to play game online, hopefully you can kick my butt, maybe I’ll learn something new. But ya know what they say about old dogs…… :-)

BB

[Xi]

I know the Japan to Africa ploy.
I just don’t like to teach someone to use en passant until they know when to castle. Hope you get my metaphor! :)

[Guest]

Xi,BB you guys give me lots to think about. I think I’ll try both methods in the future to see how each one works. If I do decide to do pearl, can I use the ftr from Philippines? I tried this once but my opponent said even if I move the AC to HAWsz I would still need one move to land it. Another Question is can the ftr on the Jap AC go into battle at pearl, fly back to the AC, then the AC with ftr make a non combat move to say FICsz?
Oh Xi, often the en passent situation presents itself before the need to castle.

[Guest]

If Japan has 2 hit BBs I think I’d move both BB’s, the AC and sub into Hawaii. As for the fighter in the Philipines, yes it can hit. The fighter on the carrier starts at caroline, goes to hawaii and attacks and ‘could/would’ land on wake or solomon island. The fighter from Phillipines uses 4 movement to get to hawaii so the CV would have to move to the Hawaii sea zone during combat or non-combat moves.

There is great debate as to the ruling as to if you MUST move the CV there even if the fighter that required it got shot down. Under what I see from ‘risky missions’ it does not but……

The biggest mistake I see the allies making is seeing a carrier and thinking 2 planes on offense. The Jap player should ALWAYS ensure the 2 planes from the carrier can hit and land on an island while 2 more fighters on land fly out attack and land on the carrier. Hawaii could be hit with 3 fighters, 2 BBs, CV, bomber and Sub on R1.

[Xi]

Guests FTR answer is correct, except that the CV must move to the HAW sz by the Noncombat Movement phase to recover the FTR(I recommend moving the CV to the HAW sz in the Combat Movement phase to include it in the attack.)
Guests plan is good, but overkills HAW, IMCO.

I recommend hitting HAW sz and CHI (and maybe SFE on J1.) However, if USSR has grouped in YAK, then hit SFE & SSI on J2. Hit YAK on J3 from SFE & MAN. Remember, if USSR attacks from YAK he does you the favour of thinning his forces. After J1, always TRN 8 INF or 6 INF & 1 ARM to MAN each turn. Extra IPCs can build another TRN or FTR. Island INF can be factored into these transports or moves on HAW, AUST, NZ, ALK, MEX & BRZL.

Every plan changes when the enemy is contacted.
If one plan don’t work … try another. Take meticulous notes! :lol:

[Guest]

Thanks Xi! However, knowing your opponent is not likely to take the US fleet through the Panama Canal, why do pearl? Why not make that fleet attack? It attacks at 1,2,3 but defends at 2,3,4. I expect my opponent to move the fleet north in conjunction with the WUSBB and tran to try to cross the Bering Straite and/or mess with Japansz. If japan pulls allnavy to Japansz this should be adequate counter. Do you think so?

[BigBlocky]

Xi,
I was guest who posted about getting the fighters to hawaii. Thanks for pointing out the carrier must move to Hawaii as well but it’s redundant as I had already said to do that in my post. :-)

dubya also gatorade,
With single hit BBs I think it’s a mistake to do pearl harbour. Have you been following the game between Uverga - DarthMaximus under the ‘Games Forum’? Japan did peal harbour and lost 2 ftrs and the sub, only had 2 BBs and the CV. Why the US never attacked is beyond me. Yeah I can understand if the Brits built a carrier and expect your 2 ftrs but it was no so here. USA could have hit the 2 bbs and CV with a BB, Xport, 2 ftrs and bomber. As the US player, (single hit BBs) I would hit any Jap fleet at Pearl Harbour unless A) the brits expected my ftrs for their new CV or B) the Japs have 2 BBs, CV and 2 ftrs or more. With 2 bbs, cv and 11 ftr the Jap has 14 D and no fodder, USA has 14 O and 1 fodder and quite frankly can afford to lose it all, the Japs can’t.

With 2 hit BBs, go nuts to the walls on pearl harbour, if the US builds all fleet on the west you can smoke it too.

BB

[Guest]

BB I agree with you. I think we might be the only ones who think doing pearl is a mistake. in my last game japan sunk the US pearl fleet on one roll. However they defended with 2hits. After losing the sub I agonized over losing a ftr or BB. It seems to be more efficient to make that fleet attack, or defend further west where there is no effective UScounter. The US can put 2ftrs on the AC and move the Bmr west. But that takes pressure off germany. Might slow down Japan a bit but not fatal.
To go off topic a bit, I work in a produce department of a grocery store. At times we have Japanese sweet potatoes available. So who discovered japanese sweet potatoes? Yammamoto of course!

[BigBlocky]

Booooooooooooo :-) Yammmsssss

I hear ya RE: Pearl, imagine if you hadn’t used that transport at all. Losing a ftr and sub costs 20 IPC to kill 38 US IPC that except for the ftr is useless against Germany. If the Yank player wanted to go Pacific to begin with he still will and doing PH might help the Pacific first strategy, the Japs just can’t build a carrier to defend it’s transports against subs and air power.

The japs are so thin on cannon fodder that you want all the land battles over quick. With overwhelming air you can do things like 2 infantry against 3 land units. There is only a 1 in 27 chance 3 defending land units do 3 hits on the first round and only a 6 in 27 chance they will do 2 hits on the first round. It’s a bit more likely that they will do NO hits then 2 or more. With 6 air units you want to have 2-3 small battles/round with Russia as they only have 2 air. Japs wins the battle of attrition.