@Krieghund thanks again. Pretty sure they are going J4 and sealion. Hold on!
Global 2nd edition Q+A ( AAG40.2)
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Krieg can you confirm?
I can see how Gargantua may be right, but I disagree. As I understand Gamerman’s explanation, the only ones who could scramble would be Portugal if they had an airbase and fighters, or Rio de Oro if they had an airbase and fighters, but they don’t have airbases or fighters so no scramble. They may become “axis friendly” when ANZAC attacks them, but they are still neutral and not part of the axis. So its not the axis’s fight and they can’t scramble.
But we would be very grateful for confirmation either way.
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I have a question.
On page 16 of the Europe 1940, 2ed edition rulebook, the section on Scramble starts with this sentence:
“Scrambling is a special movement that the defender can make at the end of this phase.” (emphasis added)Now here is the situation. The neutrals are still neutral. Italy and Germany have airbases with fighters in Gibraltar and Morocco, but there are no axis ships in z91. ANZAC declares war on the neutrals and attacks Portugal and Rio de Oro. Since they are not attacking any axis power, only neutral territories, would I be correct in my interpretation of the above sentence from the rulebook, which is that the axis planes cannot scramble because the axis are not the defenders in this situation? The neutrals are the defenders; not the axis and so they cannot scramble.
Man that sounds like one weird game!
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Gamerman is correct.
You don’t declare war on neutrals - you just attack them. As the amphibious assault was being done from a friendly sea zone, there was no sea battle, so the “defender” obviously had no cause to scramble for that reason. As for scrambling to resist an amphibious assault, since the neutral territory doesn’t join the opposing alliance until it’s actually invaded, it’s too late to scramble at that point, as the troops are already ashore.
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Gamerman is correct.
You don’t declare war on neutrals - you just attack them. As the amphibious assault was being done from a friendly sea zone, there was no sea battle, so the “defender” obviously had no cause to scramble for that reason. As for scrambling to resist an amphibious assault, since the neutral territory doesn’t join the opposing alliance until it’s actually invaded, it’s too late to scramble at that point, as the troops are already ashore.
So this ruling establishes that an “attack” is not an “invasion”.
Page 16 of the rulebook reads
"Scrambling is a special movement that the defender can make at the end of this phase. It must be done after all of the attackers combat movements have been completed and all attacks have been declared."
And if the attack is not considered an invasion, than things can get really exciting! Check it out Ripley!
EXAMPLE #1
IE, USA sends 1 fighter + 5 loaded transports, vs 1 german destroyer, and declares an “attack” on Portugal. Usa fails in the Sz, and is forced to retreat.But because of the failure, and no US troop landings, no true neutrals were invaded and they do not become pro-axis.
EXAMPLE #2
(In probably 1% of games, you can use this ruling to produce a suicide plane movement edge, as indicated below)The British commit to an amphibious attack on spain vz sz91 that has a less than 1% chance of success (but there is still a chance). 1 brit dst vs 3 loaded german carriers.
The British move a fighter off malta (that has an airbase this game) to Sz93 to nuke a bunch of German transports that are unescorted.
Hitler laughs and says “But my british friend, you will have no where to land!”
Churchill responds by saying, “In theory, I can move an Aircraft Carrier to Sz104, and in theory I will be -invading- spain after I defeat your navy. so my plane -could- land”
Churchill completes the move, and loses to the german navy, but gets the 5 freebie transports in Sz93. His plane has nowhere to land so it dies.
Hitler then indicates, “Hah! Well all the neutrals are pro-axis now!”, And that’s when Churchill reminds him… “No, they aren’t, I planned an -attack-, but it wasn’t an invasion.” :)
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Uh…
OK so on round 1 Germany takes Southern France and then UK leaves a pair of unescorted transports in z91.
Italy declares an attack on Spain via z93 with 1 sub, 1 transport, and 1 infantry (even though there are no allies ships in z92 or z94). Italy also declares an attack on the UK transports with the bomber, with plans to NCM over Spain and land in South France.
So the bomber attacks the UK transports and sinks them. Then the sub fails to sink the French ships, there is no landing, Spain remains strict neutral, and the bomber crashes.
:?
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Uh…
OK so on round 1 Germany takes Southern France and then UK leaves a pair of unescorted transports in z91.Â
Italy declares an attack on Spain via z93 with 1 sub, 1 transport, and 1 infantry (even though there are no allies ships in z92 or z94). Italy also declares an attack on the UK transports with the bomber, with plans to NCM over Spain and land in South France.
So the bomber attacks the UK transports and sinks them. Then the sub fails to sink the French ships, there is no landing, Spain remains strict neutral, and the bomber crashes.
:?
Exactly!
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OK, you’ve convinced me. Since an amphibious assault is a declared attack, the neutral territory should join the opposing alliance when the attack is declared, and scrambling to defend it should be allowed. That makes sense.
To be honest, this was actually my initial gut reaction, but the word “invaded” in the rules implied to me that units actually had to enter the territory (plus, I wanted Gamerman to be right :-)). However, the word “attacked” is also used in the same sentence. This is a case of where using alternative terms for “flavor” in the rules can lead to confusion over shades of meaning.
It never ceases to amaze me that new situations can keep coming up for years after publication in a game like this.
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So the neutral territories become pro-other side the moment the attacker announces the attack at the start of combat movement phase; not when troops actually enter the neutral territory. And a defending alliance can scramble to defend against an amphibious assault on a neutral that is pro-their side. Thank you Krieghund.
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Well that was a lot of fun. :)
Thanks Krieg
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On a similar note
EXAMPLE
Germany attacks Yugoslavia G1, and the allies opt to replace the Yugo pieces with “French” units.Germany’s attack is a one round strafe, and they retreat. England chooses to land an aircraft in Yugo on UK1.
Question #1. By UK landing, is Yugo now activated? Or can planes land but not activate?
Question #2. Are the “activated” pieces, now French - as originally placed? or UK because of the plane landing? -
Per above
Question #3. If UK lands ground units into Yugoslavia, and the Yugoslavian (French units) forces now switched from French pieces to british pieces? or are they activated for the French?
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Here are my guesses:
1. Planes don’t activate territories, similar to in the case of the Dutch (Brits can land planes in the DEI but can’t take control of them without ground units).
2. They would still be French since they were not activated.
3. I would say they become British, since the only reason they are French units is because come country’s pieces are needed to represent them (since there are no neutral units in the game box).
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The planes land but do not activate. Yugo does not become French; they are Yugoslavian units that can defend but not attack because Yugoslavia doesn’t have a turn. But if UK drops an infantry from the transport after Taranto, then they are activated and become British.
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So the neutral territories become pro-other side the moment the attacker announces the attack at the start of combat movement phase; not when troops actually enter the neutral territory. And a defending alliance can scramble to defend against an amphibious assault on a neutral that is pro-their side. Thank you Krieghund.
I think Krieghund is saying you can scramble to defend a strict neutral, actually. Because as soon as the attack is declared, the neutral is on your side.
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On a similar note
EXAMPLE
Germany attacks Yugoslavia G1, and the allies opt to replace the Yugo pieces with “French” units.Germany’s attack is a one round strafe, and they retreat. England chooses to land an aircraft in Yugo on UK1.
Question #1. By UK landing, is Yugo now activated? Or can planes land but not activate?
**No, it takes an infantry, mech, artillery, or tank to activate. Planes can land, and the territory will not be activated.Question #2. Are the “activated” pieces, now French - as originally placed? or UK because of the plane landing?
The rulebook is clear it does not matter what nationality of pieces are put down. It is totally irrelevant. They can’t move**
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Per above
Question #3. If UK lands ground units into Yugoslavia, and the Yugoslavian (French units) forces now switched from French pieces to british pieces? or are they activated for the French?
Again, the nationality that is chosen when Yugoslavia is invaded is irrelevant. If UK lands ground units into Yugoslavia, the infantry that was in Yugoslavia that is being activated must be UK now.
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If I have 2 german infantry on an italian transport. I move the italian transport on the italian turn. Can I do an amphibious assault on the german turn using a single infantry and move the second infantry during the ncm phase?
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If I have 2 german infantry on an italian transport. I move the italian transport on the italian turn. Can I do an amphibious assault on the german turn using a single infantry and move the second infantry during the ncm phase?
Tested in triple A and triple A does not allow it. So I am assuming it is a no.
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Right, it’s a no, because once a transport unloads, it is DONE for the turn.
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Can you do a landing with an inf and an AAA (which you loaded in a previous turn)?
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