@dylan64 Yeah Larry Harris setup nerfs the German starting setup to the point where they can no longer consistently kill 100% on UK’s starting navy. That goes a long ways towards making life more manageable for them. Give it a try.
What should UK do with India?
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At least when they were 2 defense they cost 8 IPC. I think that is much more balanced. Then you can’t outproduce subs over equally powerful destroyers, or cruisers. While cruisers cost 12IPC, they have the same ATK/DEF per IPC as destroyers. 4IPC per point of ATK/DEF. So then you can grab 1 destroyer, and some cruisers and still bombard stuff while simultaneously defending against subs.
UK cannot keep India and Africa, and Africa is worth more.
I’ve already mentioned this: subs here are maximized for attack but they have serious drawbacks, specially you can’t rely on them to defend a fleet against air attacks. And Japan needs to have transports so doesn’t matter if you have 10, 15 or 20, they can be rendered useless to defend surface ships and transports against air attacks.
Like Mallery29 said, the ‘new’ sub stats have been introduced 4 years ago on Anniversary and so far no one has ever complained about them or you see people using massive fleets of subs on AA50, AA41.1 or Global… they can’t go on land and they can’t defend against planes.
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US moves destroyer to SZ48 (Philippines) on US2 and blocks your 5 subs from reaching that SZ.
India also gets 3 ground units, plus the US fighter, plus 3 UK fighters (the 2 from West Russia - since no carrier is built on UK2)… with the starting units included I don’t Japan can break that with 4 ground units plus planes.
Ok, so then it is:
2BB, 2DD, 4FTR, 1BMR, 1CA, 1AC, 1SS (34) vs 3 ACs, 1 BB, 1DD, 1 SS, 6 FTRs (37)
60% chance of Japanese victory. (average IPC loss for Allies is 114) 75% for Japan with LL dice.
It’s better, it’s at least viable, but at this point it is assuming lucky dice at SZ37 on UK1. So a 60-70% chance of your UK1 strategy working right, plus an eventual 40% showdown. But you should average out to around 1BB and your transports left for US/UK in the pacific, maybe you also save a destroyer. Then IF you do have a DD left you could try to attack the 5 subs on US turn with 46% odds of winning.
At least when they were 2 defense they cost 8 IPC. I think that is much more balanced. Then you can’t outproduce subs over equally powerful destroyers, or cruisers. While cruisers cost 12IPC, they have the same ATK/DEF per IPC as destroyers. 4IPC per point of ATK/DEF. So then you can grab 1 destroyer, and some cruisers and still bombard stuff while simultaneously defending against subs.
UK cannot keep India and Africa, and Africa is worth more.
I’ve already mentioned this: subs here are maximized for attack but they have serious drawbacks, specially you can’t rely on them to defend a fleet against air attacks. And Japan needs to have transports so doesn’t matter if you have 10, 15 or 20, they can be rendered useless to defend surface ships and transports against air attacks.
Like Mallery29 said, the ‘new’ sub stats have been introduced 4 years ago on Anniversary and so far no one has ever complained about them or you see people using massive fleets of subs on AA50, AA41.1 or Global… they can’t go on land and they can’t defend against planes.
Maybe it’s the combination of the new map, initial starting unit placement, and the subs which make them so potent now? Or maybe everyone always went KGF before? The old map seemed to favor KGF, and the new map (at least at first glance) appears to favor KJF.
Why does Japan need transports? Why can it not just build a pure navy to defeat any UK/US navy in the pacific and let Germany beat Russia?
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Ok, so then it is:
2BB, 2DD, 4FTR, 1BMR, 1CA, 1AC, 1SS (34) vs 3 ACs, 1 BB, 1DD, 1 SS, 6 FTRs (37)
60% chance of Japanese victory. (average IPC loss for Allies is 114) 75% for Japan with LL dice.
It’s better, it’s at least viable, but at this point it is assuming lucky dice at SZ37 on UK1. So a 60-70% chance of your UK1 strategy working right, plus an eventual 60% showdown. But you should average out to around 1BB and your transports left for US/UK in the pacific, maybe you also save a destroyer. Then IF you do have a DD left you could try to attack the 5 subs on US turn with 46% odds of winning.
2 subs, UK and US - UK1 buy is still 1 carrier, 1 fighter, 1 sub.
Even if Japan wins the US should be able to build an IC on US3 because it can bring 2 inf, and the UK can also lift 2 inf from Australia. And on US3 the first ships built on US1 also start arriving at Borneo….even if Japan attacks the Allied fleet off Borneo on J3 and wins, any survivors will face the risk of an US counterattack.
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Ok, so then it is:
2BB, 2DD, 4FTR, 1BMR, 1CA, 1AC, 1SS (34) vs 3 ACs, 1 BB, 1DD, 1 SS, 6 FTRs (37)
60% chance of Japanese victory. (average IPC loss for Allies is 114) 75% for Japan with LL dice.
It’s better, it’s at least viable, but at this point it is assuming lucky dice at SZ37 on UK1. So a 60-70% chance of your UK1 strategy working right, plus an eventual 60% showdown. But you should average out to around 1BB and your transports left for US/UK in the pacific, maybe you also save a destroyer. Then IF you do have a DD left you could try to attack the 5 subs on US turn with 46% odds of winning.
2 subs, UK and US - UK1 buy is still 1 carrier, 1 fighter, 1 sub.
Even if Japan wins the US should be able to build an IC on US3 because it can bring 2 inf, and the UK can also lift 2 inf from Australia. And on US3 the first ships built on US1 also start arriving at Borneo….even if Japan attacks the Allied fleet off Borneo on J3 and wins, any survivors will face the risk of an US counterattack.
What are the odds of a 40% victory following a 60-70% victory, around 25%? Sure it’s possible, but unlikely. Are you really going to PLAN on this? I wouldn’t. I try not to plan on anything less than 80%
Plus you still have to contend with 4-5 more subs per turn. You can’t beat them AND make transports/other land support naval units.
Also you are now talking about being on Round 4, and only taking Borneo. Germany is about 2-4 turns from ending this game.
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What are the odds of a 40% victory following a 60-70% victory, around 25%? Sure it’s possible, but unlikely. Are you really going to PLAN on this? I wouldn’t. I try not to plan on anything less than 80%
Plus you still have to contend with 4-5 more subs per turn. You can’t beat them AND make transports/other land support naval units.
On a KJF the US only needs to build 1 additional transport on US2, all of the money goes naval (fighters, carriers, subs, destroyers) until you prevent Japan from reconquering Borneo/E. Indies and build an IC there. Until you defeat the Japanese fleet you don’t build any more transports.
Also you are now talking about being on Round 4, and only taking Borneo. Germany is about 2-4 turns from ending this game.
Well, you get the IC on Borneo working on US3, so on US4 you could have a 1st transport ready of troops to kick Japan out of Asia or not, depending on the situation. But the major thing effect of defeating the Japanese fleet is now that India should be secure and can start sending help to the Russians.
But at this point it’s really speculation… I need to try this, there’s a LOT of potential moves, some on the previous posts (I’d buy fighters/bombers instead of subs as Japan… from my experience on 1st Edition the Allies will eventually prevail on the Pacific and planes have a bigger reach and are more useful to harass the US transports on Asia) and the odds are… well, there will be ways to make them better on each situation.
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What are the odds of a 40% victory following a 60-70% victory, around 25%? Sure it’s possible, but unlikely. Are you really going to PLAN on this? I wouldn’t. I try not to plan on anything less than 80%
Plus you still have to contend with 4-5 more subs per turn. You can’t beat them AND make transports/other land support naval units.
On a KJF the US only needs to build 1 additional transport on US2, all of the money goes naval (fighters, carriers, subs, destroyers) until you prevent Japan from reconquering Borneo/E. Indies and build an IC there. Until you defeat the Japanese fleet you don’t build any more transports.
Also you are now talking about being on Round 4, and only taking Borneo. Germany is about 2-4 turns from ending this game.
Well, you get the IC on Borneo working on US3, so on US4 you could have a 1st transport ready of troops to kick Japan out of Asia or not, depending on the situation. But the major thing effect of defeating the Japanese fleet is now that India should be secure and can start sending help to the Russians.
But at this point it’s really speculation… I need to try this, there’s a LOT of potential moves, some on the previous posts (I’d buy fighters/bombers instead of subs as Japan… from my experience on 1st Edition the Allies will eventually prevail on the Pacific and planes have a bigger reach and are more useful to harass the US transports on Asia) and the odds are… well, there will be ways to make them better on each situation.
I agree planes have more utility, but subs only hit naval units. I know this sounds like a negative, but honestly i think it’s a huge bonus. Now you don’t have to worry about defending planes on AC’s. Say US has 46IPC per turn on US4, and Japan has around 35 IPC. Japan makes 5-6 subs per turn. What can the US make that will win against that? I have tried every combination, the subs always win. BMR’s/FTR’s don’t always win. So you lose utility, but you gain naval superiority. Which means you severely limit the capabilities of India and a possible US Borneo. Can’t get ground units off Borneo, and if you were just going to send FTR’s to India/RUS you could have done that without giving up your pacific fleet.
Only way UK secures India is if they give up Africa. I have gone over the numbers, you can’t do both. While Japan will be severely limited in ground forces by buying so many subs, they do have enough starting units and TRN’s + J1 2x TRN build to take it if UK doesn’t sacrifice Africa to hold it. So now your talking about a 20IPC UK, and a 20IPC RUS vs a 50+IPC Germany. The second Moscow falls, Germany will steamroll/liberate the entire Asian/African continents then drop a navy in the Baltic and take Brittan.
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Hobbes, instead of going naval, why not hit the EI with the two transports after the battle on UK1…its a 76% battle (4inf vs. 2inf).
I thought about using the CV FTR for the amphib is at 98%, but the Naval battle is only 33%. Â If you take EI, you will have it for a guarantee of two turns, and if the US is on KJF as well, Japan can’t risk retaking EI on J2 knowing the US fleet can take out Phillipines or Borneo US2. Â In the meantime for turn 3, Russia sends its small stacks to hit the North (5inf at Buryatia) and Middle (2tanks/4inf), with India coming from the South? Â I think the numbers/odds for allies increases this way, but I could be mistaken. So with Egypt likely doomed on G2 and having EI on UK1, this will be a non-negative IPC outcome for UK for at least 3turns. -
Hobbes, instead of going naval, why not hit the EI with the two transports after the battle on UK1…its a 76% battle (4inf vs. 2inf).
Yup… have noticed it… but the odds creep me even more there
I thought about using the CV FTR, but I can’t remember if the CV is sacked in the Naval battle, if the FTR can be used in the amphib (it will get sacked either way, question is when it does). The amphib is at 98%, but the Naval battle is only 33%. If you take EI, you will have it for a guarantee of two turns, and if the US is on KJF as well, Japan can’t risk retaking EI on J2 knowing the US fleet can take out Phillipines or Borneo US2. In the meantime for turn 3, Russia sends its small stacks to hit the North (5inf at Buryatia) and Middle (2tanks/4inf), with India coming from the South? I think the numbers/odds for allies increases this way, but I could be mistaken.
The more you send with Russia, the quicker Germany will move for the kill.
I need to try this as Allies and see how long I can prevent Germany from wiping Russia… timing is everything here.
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I know…I could probably just go with 1 tank and say the Nov inf and the 2inf from Evengi to provide enough “force” into China…that would provide two extra inf on R1 instead of the 2tank/4inf buy…so I guess 6inf/1tank it may be.
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Hobbes, instead of going naval, why not hit the EI with the two transports after the battle on UK1…its a 76% battle (4inf vs. 2inf).
Yup… have noticed it… but the odds creep me even more there
bad experience with similar battles? as you said before…don’t let the past bad defeats affect your strat… :-D
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bad experience with similar battles? as you said before…don’t let the past bad defeats affect your strat… :-D
Well, you have to win 2 battles one with 66%, the other with 70% odds, which gives you 46% chance of that happening.
It isn’t so bad if you’d lose the ground assault, but if you lose the naval combat then those 4 infantry on those transports can’t be offloaded on non-combat if you retreat (because they were loaded on combat move) so you’ll lose both the naval combat and those transports/infantry to Japanese attack on J1.And then India is ripe for Japan to take…
That’s creepy odds to me :mrgreen:
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Did everyone already give up on putting the game on the line on the E.Indies UK/Japan fight in UK1 (66%)? Leaving that Japan fleet alive just seems to be a bad idea to me.
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Did everyone already give up on putting the game on the line on the E.Indies UK/Japan fight in UK1 (66%)? Leaving that Japan fleet alive just seems to be a bad idea to me.
With 66% odds, attacking it may turn out to be a bad idea as well ;)
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spam inf.
attacking the japan fleet is not too bad assuming you still have your egypt fighter. I’d opt for the german bship instead, but frankly the allies are going to lose anyway, you may as well have fun and try to make big things happen.
japan is still in good shape after losing that fleet where as those uk ships wouldn’t do jack squat anyway. maybe the aussie fleet links up with usa, where does the india fleet go? zzzzzzzz ok does nothing. May as well swing for the fences.
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Well crap. I’m assuming naval builds are a dead end, so maybe fleeing towards the Med (or attacking German BB) is feasible after all.
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Cow, the only thing useful that I could come up with was this:
UK CV and FTR to hit Japan DD/Trans. FTR lands in Schezwan (backed up by Kazah inf)
CA, 2inf and Trans goes for Borneo
CA, SS, 2inf, Trans to Solomons.on J1 though, CV gets destroyed, Schezwan is at risk, CA also sacked (SS submerges) and now UK is short two transports. Â But whatever goes for the CA, will most likely be sacked by the US on US1 (and you will be able to land the Bomber in the Solomons.
India will have to get reinfoced with the 2 UK FTRs (which won’t be till UK2) and the US/UK FTRs in Schezwan (assuming Japan didn’t focus it’s efforts here, which would be costly for Japan to some degree). Â UK1 and 2 buys would be inf/2art and inf/art/tank respectively (or replace art with FTR). Â It’s that or send the fleet to the Med… -
Well, you have to win 2 battles one with 66%, the other with 70% odds, which gives you 46% chance of that happening.
It isn’t so bad if you’d lose the ground assault, but if you lose the naval combat then those 4 infantry on those transports can’t be offloaded on non-combat if you retreat (because they were loaded on combat move) so you’ll lose both the naval combat and those transports/infantry to Japanese attack on J1.Aw, you’re making too much math out of it. You said so yourself that losing the 4inf wouldn’t be so bad, as long as you win the naval battle. If you win the Naval battle and are able to come away with a ship or two, that in itself is a true victory. And only the India Transport is going to be reliable if you fail, so why not. You may never get a second chance
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Aw, you’re making too much math out of it. You said so yourself that losing the 4inf wouldn’t be so bad, as long as you win the naval battle. If you win the Naval battle and are able to come away with a ship or two, that in itself is a true victory. And only the India Transport is going to be reliable if you fail, so why not. You may never get a second chance
Losing the ground assault isn’t so bad because at least you eliminated the J fleet, even though now you have 2 less infantry to defend India. Losing the UK fleet and those 4 infantry is a disaster because India will fall soon.
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Went to hang with the family, it seems i missed a lot of thought provoking conversation.
It seems like everyone is starting to seriously consider moving the UK fleet to the med and going KGF. Odds for the UK in the Indian Ocean are really bad anyway you look at it. At least in the med you can guarantee UK keeps Africa. Isn’t that better than slightly denting the Japanese fleet on a kamikaze run?
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Dude you can just swing at germany’s bship with a dd and bomber or a fighter and a bomber. The only way the allies are going to win is if they get a strap on to make up for their lack of girth.
but yes, hit germany’s naval, if option not available then japan’s fleet is not bad either. you got to do somethin.
Some players buy naval for the med with germany, zzzz. your little fleet in the med is not going to contest that.
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