Oh! I understand what you mean now.
Sorry for not figuring out.
Worst Axis Mistake
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Interesting comments Dylan.
If America had stayed Neutral with Germany, I wonder how different things would have been.
No Operation Torch…. No Italian Campaign, No D-day/Normandy, or atleast how we think of it.
WOW.
I think post war there would be no communism, but the US will have to worry about the spread of Nazism. However, I think it would be more unstable and collapse earlier.
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Germany could never have beat the Soviet Union, with America or without America. The harder the war got, the tighter Stalin’s grip over his people became and he was a psychopath so it really would not matter to him if every last one of his people was sacrificed as long as he was still the boss. Same goes for Hitler, but there were more Russians than Germans. America beat Japan fair and square, but what what help they gave in Europe could have been made up by Russia if they weren’t in the war. It might have cost a few more tens of millions of Russian dead and gone on a lot longer, but Stalin would be fine with that.
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would you Vance still stick to your Opinion with the U.S. totally out of the War?…
- No Landlease
- No Support to the U.K. at all
- No Torch and all other OPS
- No Money support
???
Things could be a lot diffrent, even to an extend we might not know of…like a peace treaty of Axis and Soviet Union by splitting the Ukraine…an Invasion of the U.K. and a Arabian league against Soviet Union and /or Germany?..
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Not with US totally out of the war. If Japan were able to resume hostilities in the far east against Russia things could be different, so USA fighting the pacific war was important. But apart from that, the Soviet Union could not have been beat by Germany. Their totalitarian system had no concern about sacrificing their own people by the millions and eventually Germany would have run out of young men to send against them. It would have been a true battle of annihilation with the determining factor being Russia’s 168 million population (as of 1939) versus Germany’s 70 million. But I’m not a historian so I don’t know.
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If it was just Germany vs Russia no outside interference there is no way germany wouldnt have won, they wouldn’t have to divide there forces and their new tech like tiger tanks and the me 262’s etc would have been able to make a decisive difference since the war wouldnt have been lost when it was introduced (tigers first showed up in kursk but they were still teething)
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@Vance:
Not with US totally out of the war. If Japan were able to resume hostilities in the far east against Russia things could be different, so USA fighting the pacific war was important. But apart from that, the Soviet Union could not have been beat by Germany. Their totalitarian system had no concern about sacrificing their own people by the millions and eventually Germany would have run out of young men to send against them. It would have been a true battle of annihilation with the determining factor being Russia’s 168 million population (as of 1939) versus Germany’s 70 million. But I’m not a historian so I don’t know.
You make a very good point here Vance, Regardless of the US’s entry into the European theater the Soviet Union was going to come out on top of its conflict with Germany provided everything up to the invasion in 1941 remains unchanged. It’s important to note that by June 1941 the British were still very much in the fight and recovering from the worst of the Blitz and I think that without finishing of this front (which by this time Germany had no real hope of doing) Germany could not have won its war against the Soviets. IF in this speculative scenario the US is still fighting Japan and still providing lend-lease to Britain and the Soviet Union, then it becomes even more unlikely that Germany could have pulled off even a negotiated victory and as the war dragged on this would only multiply.
The best description I have ever heard was that the Axis (Germany & Japan anyway) were like very sharp swords but with each slash (battle fought) they sword would become weaker and the bigger the slash the weaker it would be.
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If USA had stayed true neutral Russia and England would have fell.
The RAF was pretty much living on aviation fuel supplied by usa. No fuel means no contestation of German air blitz. with out fuel, the RAF would have been doomed with or without radar.
now had the german air blitz worked, Uk would have sued for peace, leaving only russia by it self. Germany with a 1 front war would have crushed russia imo.
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The answer for the Pacific is simple….while Pearl Harbor was a brilliant idea, the fact that they missed the carriers by a week, and didn’t hit ANY fuel tanks. The planning officer should have been shot. Why it isn’t on here (3/4th waves?? c’mon) as a whole baffles me.
For Germany, it was putting their faith in the Italians in the first place.
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I put strikes on Pearl, because I wonder how much a few
more months repairs and set backs would have helped Japan’ s conquests and then consolidation of them. Otherwise my choice would be: Hitler’s unnecessary declaration of war against US. -
@wittman:
I put strikes on Pearl, because I wonder how much a few
more months repairs and set backs would have helped Japan’ s conquests and then consolidation of them.Without a carrier fleet and fuel for the subs and carriers, there is no threat to the Japanese fleet….free reign on Pacific, Hawaii falls, California coast endangered immensely (would not have fallen to invasion, but good luck trying to counter this)…and Panama would have surely fallen.
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I am curious how things would have turned out had Germany pursued the African Front all the way to the Middle East oil reserves with no Russian invasion.
John Keegan has a chapter that’s (partly) on this subject in the book “What If ? - The World’s Foremost Military Historians Imagine What Might Have Been”, edited by Robert Cowley.
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