Massive G1 Barbarossa

[Omega1759]

What do you gain by going G1 barbarossa? Are you getting to Moscow faster with this? Do you think you are destroying Russian troops on G1 and getting an economic advantage?

[JimmyHat]

Well, the advantage to Germany is you can take out a significant portion of Russian frontline strength G1.  If you wait until G2 he has had a chance to stack away from the front.  Russia is under severe pressure when they cannot rearrange their lines prior to invasion.

The disadvantage, he is not hitting Yugo, Normandy or very much of the British fleet.  He also is not building into his fleet and therefore will probably lose his ships by G3 at the latest.  I don’t see the need for 10 tanks G2.  You’ll have russia reeling, perhaps a few mech inf but I would get inf/art G1 and inf/art G2.  They will let you defend your European coasts and provide some bodies to the drive on Moscow.

Also leave the Germ fleet in the baltic, perhaps fighting the Russians.  If you head into the North sea and leave 2 UK BB’s alive you might as well scuttle them.

[Omega1759]

@JimmyHat:

Well, the advantage to Germany is you can take out a significant portion of Russian frontline strength G1.  If you wait until G2 he has had a chance to stack away from the front.  Russia is under severe pressure when they cannot rearrange their lines prior to invasion.

The disadvantage, he is not hitting Yugo, Normandy or very much of the British fleet.  He also is not building into his fleet and therefore will probably lose his ships by G3 at the latest.  I don’t see the need for 10 tanks G2.  You’ll have russia reeling, perhaps a few mech inf but I would get inf/art G1 and inf/art G2.  They will let you defend your European coasts and provide some bodies to the drive on Moscow.

Have not looked at map in detail, but I think at least some of the German troops are open to counterattack. They probably can be counterattacked again… but still. If you don’t attack Yugo, I think brits would go ahead and activate it on their turn… Need to see how that would look, but could be enough to cause trouble (one option is that the French fighter could land there to reinforce the garnison)

[Razor]

@JimmyHat:

The disadvantage, he is not hitting Yugo,

You can and should hit Yugo with the South German inf/art stack (not the tanks) and one inf from Romenia.
If you are lucky one Yugoman will survive, and you can retreat your stack into Rumenia.
Now you have double-moved your South German stack closer to the front, for the cost of 1 or 2 inf.

[cenator01]

I don’t see any benefit from attacking Yugoslavia. You probably loose 2 Inf for no benefit. If You don’t capture it, you lost 2 valuable Inf against the Sovjets. If You take Yugoslavia, you loose 2 valuable Inf (it takes 3 turns to recover the losses in IPC and you won’t catch up the logistical defizit) and you loose a more valuable turn to Moskau. Yugoslavia seems to be a bad idea to attack in any case, you want to attack the soviet union in turn 1 or 2. If you plan to attack the sovjet union turn 3 or later, than its an option. Just my 2 cents.

I don’t se the need to attack the Normandy either. Of course, there is a british fighter, but I assume you loose 2 Inf at the beaches of Normandy as well as 2 more casualties at France. Leading to the loss of additional 4 Units (most probably mobile infantrie or artillery, because of 2 Inf. less in France.
I prefere to hit France with as much force as possible, to keep the casualties as low as possible, needing the tanks and mech. Inf for reinforcing the sovjet front. This of course seems to be dangerous for the italian navies, but i feel they are in trouble anyways (therfore needing some revision of the setup, but i would suppose more italian Infantry in africa, because the italinas had more than twice as many groundforces in africa than the brits did. This would keep the italians fighting in africa a little longer).

I feel an attack on the sovjet union on turn one, without a majer offense against the british fleet is going to loose you the game. You are not fast enough driving through the sovjet landscape and the brits will start to attack your beaches at latest at turn 3 with force.

[special forces]

@Razor:

@JimmyHat:

The disadvantage, he is not hitting Yugo,

You can and should hit Yugo with the South German inf/art stack (not the tanks) and one inf from Romenia.
If you are lucky one Yugoman will survive, and you can retreat your stack into Rumenia.
Now you have double-moved your South German stack closer to the front, for the cost of 1 or 2 inf.

And weakened it for Italy to take.

That is in fact a standard tactic of my opponent Axis players

[JimmyHat]

The current fix I am working on for A2 is to keep Italy neutral until their first turn, when they must go to war against the Allies.  This represents their DOW on the allies instead of the other way around.  It also saves the Italian units for action when they…go to war.

Try it and see if it causes any major headaches, I think it stands a good chance at achieving balance, provided you keep the DOW by Russia if Germany captures London.

[Redjac]

I tried the turn one German attack on Russia this weekend. Combined it with a Japanese air strike on Pearl Harbor as well.

It had mostly positive results. The attacks on the Soviet Union went off flawlessly. Lost only one infantry. But the best part was the Soviet player had never seen it before and just retreated back to the Ukraine and Leningrad on Russia 1. To say he had panicked might being going too far, but it is fair to say it was not what he was used to. The Germans will smash Leningrad on G3 and kill his entire northern army and all his planes. We finished the first two turns and there no way for him to stop it.

In the Pacific, the Japanese used planes from 2 carriers and 2 destroyers and 1 submarine to sink the surface fleet at Pearl Harbor. His fighters did not scramble. On US 1 he flew his planes to Pearl and Wake Island and moved his navy to Pearl as well. The best part, sort of, was that he built all submarine for the US on turn 1 and placed them on the west coast. This force the Japanese Carriers to retreat away from Pearl Harbor. I could attack the American fleet, but the counterattack from the submarines combined with local planes will cripple the Japanese fleet. Likewise he was not used to the turn one attack and has focused all his attention to the Pacific. The Japanese may live to regret it but the Germans are loving it.

In Mediterranean the Italians are suffering. The British destroyed the Italian army at Tobruk, defeated the Italian DD and TR near Malta and based everything in Malta. I attacked with the Italians and destroyed the British navy. But my damaged BB and CA were in turn sunk by the French Navy. He has two CA (1 US and 1 UK) and two TR off Gibraltar and troops garrisoning Gibraltar. The Italians have no navy and no money coming in.

While the turn one attack on the Soviet Union and America does not have to be combined, I wanted to see if an global early attack helped the Axis. In the Pacific the British are down Borneo and Hong Kong so their money is down already. Even taking Java only raised their money to ten IPC"s a turn. The Japanese should get it all of the DEI on turn Japan 3. In Russia the Soviets will lose Leningrad on G3 and will never get it back. I will be advancing toward Moscow soon.

Now a veteran player may retreat the northern army because he will realize he cannot hold Leningrad if attacked on the Germans on turn 1, but so far it has been favorable to the Axis.

In hindsight, maybe I will attack the Americans on turn 2 in the Pacific next time. Though I cannot explain because I am kind of tired from playing A&A late, the Japanese “feel” out of position. The carriers are at Caroline Islands, as they were safer there than sailing straight back to Japan. The rest of the Fleet is north of Java and is not strong enough to attack India or Australia by itself. They will be low on infantry and artillery after this assault on Java. They have about 2 Infantry and 2 AA guns on the island. Not sure of the exact number of troops, 2-4 is there garrison force. But they flew their planes to Wake and Pearl and from America and Australia, so they are out of position to defend Australia…

When we play next week, I will be able to tell more.

[i rock]

now what happened in my game might not be so for global because the only time i have been attack russia has been attacked g1 was in europe, but i think my findings are still relevant.

what happened was the lack of pressure on britian ment that they focused heavly on the mediteranian, kicking italy out of africa and destroying his navy. then i build a mf in egypt on turn 3 and started pooring british armor into russia to support the commies. meanwhile america started my favorite low ipc cost startegy, buy 1 bmr 1 ftr 1 ss per turn for europe send the ftr and bmr to england to bmb european fatories airbases and navle bases and subs convoy raided the weakened italy and the strong germany, combiened with a later assault on france and norway thats basicly all america did. the funniest moment was when i had the FEE in russian 8 french infantry 1 french tank 1 french arty and 1 french fighter. unfortunatly that force was never able too be assembeled again  :cry: .

[chuckinger]

@gargantua
yeah i forgot w.germany, with units there and france you can cover all uk landing spots. You will also need a few planes because uk can still ignore africa and build bombers to cripple your industry.

with south france in german hands, they can try to help in the med.
if italy is kicked out of africa, they can still help to defend the mainland or used as opener on the russian front.

if you want to go totally nuts you can bring half of the japanese fleet to africa and invade south africa or egypt.
btw. is a dow on the europe allies like a dow on the pacific allies?

[Gargantua]

btw. is a dow on the europe allies like a dow on the pacific allies?

Yep,

England is going to fight you whether you bomb them in London, OR Calcutta.

[Jennifer]

@chuckinger:

@gargantua
yeah i forgot w.germany, with units there and france you can cover all uk landing spots. You will also need a few planes because uk can still ignore africa and build bombers to cripple your industry.

with south france in german hands, they can try to help in the med.
if italy is kicked out of africa, they can still help to defend the mainland or used as opener on the russian front.

if you want to go totally nuts you can bring half of the japanese fleet to africa and invade south africa or egypt.
btw. is a dow on the europe allies like a dow on the pacific allies?

Not so easy to both keep England out AND press into Russia especially if you leave them lots of warships.

Later on (About round 5 or 6) you can have Italian units keeping the British out which frees up a lot of German equipment for Russia.

[chuckinger]

there is the same problem with sealion (keep russia out and invade england)

i can`t see the thing with the warships, as long as you can not put wheels on them and use them as land units ;)
i force the allies to fight on the mainland, where i will a have a huge advantage with 4 factories and the italians

[knp7765]

@chuckinger:

there is the same problem with sealion (keep russia out and invade england)

i can`t see the thing with the warships, as long as you can not put wheels on them and use them as land units ;)
i force the allies to fight on the mainland, where i will a have a huge advantage with 4 factories and the italians

So you more or less just give up the ocean to the Allies and concentrate totally on the land war?  I suppose that could be a good strategy, especially since Germany doesn’t have a lot of points to get convoy raided.  Still, I prefer to pound Britain’s navy and try to keep them from building any more, especially transports.

[shadowguidex]

So you more or less just give up the ocean to the Allies and concentrate totally on the land war?  I suppose that could be a good strategy, especially since Germany doesn’t have a lot of points to get convoy raided.  Still, I prefer to pound Britain’s navy and try to keep them from building any more, especially transports.

The only problem with this is that the Allies can strike on any coast, whereas you need to defend them all or be able to counterattack them all.  It’s difficult to counterattack at Norway.  Allied ships sitting off Gibraltar in z91 can reach 8 different coastal territories, ALL of which are extremely important to maintain control over since five border France, two are key to maintaining the Sweden NO, and one is Italy’s capital.

Once you allow the allies to shuck shuck 10+ units every single round to whatever territory they like, it is most likely game over (and both Britain and USA can do this).  With poor decisions on G1 you will allow UK to begin this process immediately if they consolidate their fleets.  You don’t want UK building TRN and INF/ART starting on UK1.

[Gargantua]

Maintaining air supremacy is the key to keep the allies at bay, nye indefinetely.

[NoMercy]

I agree with Garg, I’ve only played a few games but the Axis start with so many planes, use them wisely.

The allies will win the ocean war in the Atlantic (it’s a given) but every turn you make them build up and by placing lots of Air units in and around UK/Gib forces them to buy more surfaces ships just to protect their transports not counting the actual landings they need to do which will be extremely costly; all the while you continue your push against the required victory points on ground.

[suprise attack]

If you can defeat France on 1 and take out Yugoslavia  grab the two pro Axis countries your doing good (standard opening move)  Then it all boils down to how to deal with Russia and the U.K.  If you can keep the Royal Navy out of the game with the German Navy and Air Force then why wait to take on Russia, the objective VS the $ for conquered territories.  It almost seems like its back to basics like the original and at that point when do you attack with Japan. to me its when can you take Pearl Harbor and Manila….and if you can get the Aleutian Islands GREAT!
  I have been the Allies the last few games and the Axis have gone on 2 in all the games since Ive had Germany. When I was Germany I was going Sea Lion on 3 and 4 but I think I’ll surprise them next time and try Russia on 1 …  time to set up the board and do some planning.
  I have to hit with force ( odds in my favor ) so I can eliminate as much as I can on the first set of rolls
    BARBAROSSA ON 1

[Jeremus]

I have done the G1 barbarossa in a forum game, we are now in round 6 just after italy moved. Sadly my opponent has not showed up from more than 6 weeks so I cant go on. I play OOB btw.

On G1 I cleared only the sea zones containing british destroyers so I can deny ussr NO with a sub for at least 2 turns. Also cleared eastern poland and baltic states, that’s 6 less russian inf and he can’t really counterattack safely anyway. Bought only inf round 1 after that I bought only tanks until round 5 where I also bought tacs. Turned out to give really good results

I was on moscow’s door turn 5 and I was there to stay. I also lost norway to americans turn 5 but I really don’t mind since Italy has bought only inf since turn 1 so I can defend myself and they can’t enter baltic sea. Japan is also sending 6 planes to europe next turn. Remember this is OOB so americans can build a major in norway.

Here is the link for the game if you want to see it http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=23775.0

I also attached the most recent map

jeremus_v_mudge_OOB_06f_I.AAM

[special forces]

@Jeremus:

I also lost norway to americans turn 5 but I really don’t mind since Italy has bought only inf since turn 1 so I can defend myself and they can’t enter baltic sea. Japan is also sending 6 planes to europe next turn. Remember this is OOB so americans can build a major in norway.

In OOB allowing USA to build (and keep) a major IC in Norway is something you should worry about.It’s bringing the strongest player close to the action!

Also don’t forget with a Norway IC, they can just build ships straight in the Baltic Sea.